Practice jumper rounds at horse trials

[enjoytheride]

At a recent show the event had to move their SJ from the traditional outdoor ring to a coliseum. It was helpful having a schooling opportunity because it was an entirely different and unexpected environment. While many of us may jump indoors, how many Starter or BN eventers have entered a coliseum totally cold and jumped around with people above them in the bleachers? Does the event cancel due to lack of entries because they were forced to use a less than ideal venue? Do we let people get eliminated and then likely never come back? Do we giggle and go “well I had to SJ on an active airplane runway during a tornado, you kids these days with your programs aren’t real eventers?”

We can stand around complaining about the good old days while the sport dies or we can adapt.

Same with the idea that people shouldn’t be in programs because it doesn’t make them “real horse people”, I have friends who are incredibly busy and the only way they can ride or compete is to have their horse in a program, in a boarding barn. Do we tell those people to sell their horse and take up golf?

[Sticky_Situation]

Strange that the “standard” mentality after getting eliminated is no longer expected to be, “well that sucked, guess I need to go home and practice _____ more for next time” but instead “well that sucked, guess we won’t be back if they’re gonna make us do _____.”

If people want to be “in a program” for one reason or another, that’s fine! It’s not for me, but if they like it that’s great. I don’t see why eventing needs to be structured around the expectations of those “in programs” though. I realllly hope they don’t start letting trainers ride these practice rounds.

[enjoytheride]

Who said eventing had to be structured around people in programs? I was responding to your comments that being in a program makes a rider less than.

How is a Starter rider supposed to practice their SJ round being inside a coliseum?

[Sticky_Situation]

I mean, being less hands-on with your horse and having the trainer work through most things with your horse before you do does IMO tend to make somebody a less skilled rider and less well-rounded horseman than doing all those same things yourself, but it doesn’t mean they can’t still enjoy their horses.

There will always be a first time in a big spooky coliseum, but you can practice for it by hauling to an unfamiliar indoor to school beforehand, and by being comfortable enough with the jumping expectations at that level to still get around if the horse is a bit distracted. I’d personally also be more accepting of allowing “arena familiarization” before the jumps are set in a case like this, to let the horses get used to the “atmosphere” without actually schooling the course, although of course that would require more coordination to get the fences quickly set after the schooling time was over.

[enjoytheride]

@Sticky_Situation

I mean, being less hands-on with your horse and having the trainer work through most things with your horse before you do does IMO tend to make somebody a less skilled rider and less well-rounded horseman than doing all those same things yourself, but it doesn’t mean they can’t still enjoy their horses.

Does it really?

[Sticky_Situation]

@enjoytheride

@Sticky_Situation

I mean, being less hands-on with your horse and having the trainer work through most things with your horse before you do does IMO tend to make somebody a less skilled rider and less well-rounded horseman than doing all those same things yourself, but it doesn’t mean they can’t still enjoy their horses.

Does it really?

Yes.

Not to say that there aren’t people in full programs who are much better riders than some hands-on folks, there certainly are. And it’s entirely possible that someone in a program whose horse is getting ridden a few times every week by a professional will progress up the levels faster than someone who just takes lessons but does all the riding themself.

More time with your own butt in the saddle (not the trainer’s) makes you a better rider. If you’re the first one to jump the new Liverpool in the scary corner on your horse at home, you have a better feel for how he will react when he’s faced with something new that he’s uncertain about than you would if he jumped it with the trainer 10 times already … and you’re therefore less likely to freak out about facing new experiences at an event. Even just hacking out with friends can give you a better feel for how your horse’s mind works and his strength and weaknesses … did he need a friend to cross the creek first? Maybe more water schooling is in order. Having more involvement in the day to day management of your horse (grooming, ground training, feeding, vet care, etc) makes you more knowledgeable and a more well-rounded horseman than just writing a check when the trainer says your horse needs X, Y, and Z. Finding time for these things is not always easy for people who have jobs, kids, etc and the progress may be slower than if a trainer did much of it, but you’ll be a better rider and know your horse better when you get there.

Edit: general “you,” not @enjoytheride

[enjoytheride]

How insulting, but I think that’s your point, and it alienates a vast group of people who might decide to not try eventing, practice rounds or not, because someone like you considers them not a real rider. Can’t be around for the vet because you have a job and kids? You’re not a well rounded horse person.

I have made MORE progress when I was able to have a trainer ride my horse for me once a week. I have made more progress putting my green horse in training to have someone start it over fences or under saddle. To have someone get on my horse, get it going, and then for me to get on and to FEEL what straight was. To feel what on the bit was. To enjoy my green horse who has been started over fences by someone competent. So much more enjoyable then ending up in the dirt or ruining my horse by teaching it bad habits. If I had that opportunity now maybe people wouldn’t be insulting me by complaining that I’m still stuck in the same level. Of course then they’d be complaining that I bought my way out of the level.

Also, just because your trainer gets on your horse, doesn’t mean it’s going to go for you. I have yet to meet a trainer who could 100% train my horse to always accept my bad riding.

[Sticky_Situation]

You are taking this discussion very personally. I’m sorry if other people have given you crap for not moving up the levels fast enough before you were in a program, that’s completely uncalled for and if someone is having fun it shouldn’t matter if they spend their whole life at BN, or starter, or training, or whatever.

I didn’t say anyone is not a “real rider.” I said doing more riding yourself and being more hands on with your horse builds skills and knowledge.

I board my horses. I’m not as knowledgeable as I should be about nutrition, because I’m not the one feeding them. I try to be there when the vet comes because I want to know as much as possible about what’s going on and be directly involved in the discussions since they’re my horses … but I’m not always there, because sometimes I have to work.

I do as much of the riding myself as I can, but I wouldn’t hesitate to have a trainer ride my horses if there’s something I don’t think I can safely do myself. I also accept that my horses would probably progress faster with a professional riding them rather than me, but I personally feel that the trade off is worth it because I’ll know the horse and all his quirks better for having worked through them myself.

But if someone else prefers being in a program? That’s totally fine, as long as they’re happy and having fun with their horse.

[trubandloki]

@Sticky_Situation

I’m sorry if other people have given you crap for not moving up the levels fast enough before you were in a program, that’s completely uncalled for and if someone is having fun it shouldn’t matter if they spend their whole life at BN, or starter, or training, or whatever.

It is not an uncommon thought on threads here, that if you are only doing the low levels you might as well just stay home because you are not a real horse person. Then comes the 'back in the day we did not go out until we could jump < insert high fence height here > .

[Pennywell_Bay]

The superiority of some people thinking it makes others “less than” is amazing.

Being from HJ land, yes, I agree it seems a little overkill with trainers doing schooling and prep. But- that’s the nature of that business and I don’t begrudge those trainers making a living. For that matter if it allows busy, working people to enjoy the sport or maybe a not so brave rider.

Being the first one to take your horse over a Liverpool means squat if it gives the horse a bad experience or the rider, for that matter. There are varying levels of confidence and brave in both horses and riders.

I’m lucky- my horse walked in to the Walnut ring and went around like a seasoned horse with me when he was 7. My friend (we both keep ours at home and trailer to shows to meet our trainer) who is a much better rider than I, did not make it around. Trainer got on later and gave the horse a schooling ride (jumper show).

Is she less of a rider or horseman because they had a bad day? (Spoiler alert- no. She just moved up a level in eventing on her own).

Neither my horse or I “grew up” eventing. I’ve done the 3’6 AOs but never jumped a solid jump, neither has he. I have zero issue with having someone seasoned take him over a big solid for the first time. In some opinions it makes me less of a horse person or less skilled. I have ribbons from the biggest horse shows in the country that say otherwise.

Why not just not judge other people. You don’t know their story. It’s no one’s business.

Editing to add that SS’s last post was lovely and appreciated.

[enjoytheride]

@Sticky_Situation

You are taking this discussion very personally. I’m sorry if other people have given you crap for not moving up the levels fast enough before you were in a program, that’s completely uncalled for and if someone is having fun it shouldn’t matter if they spend their whole life at BN, or starter, or training, or whatever.

I think it is personal for myself and a lot of other people. Somebody might not have the money to spend on extra shows to get the coliseum experience in for one show, they might have the money for a practice round the day before. Somebody might need their dressage or jumping trainer to help them out keeping their horse fit, or helping smooth out some issues. It could mean the difference between them entering or not. Insulting those people by implying that they are less than means those people don’t event.

It’s a double edged sword. Some people want eventing to stay the way it used to be, but then those same people wonder about why we don’t get entries. Some people complain loudly about BN and Starter and schooling rounds but having a show run BN F (yes really) or having those schooling rounds may the reason that there can even be one division of Prelim, or the difference between a show running or not.

Edited to add I do appreciate your acknowledgement.

[Sticky_Situation]

All I’m saying is that in my opinion, we learn best through doing things hands-on and getting a variety of experiences, and programs where the owner/rider is less involved and all riding is micromanaged by the trainer provide less of that. And maybe I’m a little cynical in that it seems like some trainers (particularly on the h/j side, but it seems to be creeping into eventing) like to keep their clients as dependent as possible and limit their opportunities to be more involved even when they want to be … by encouraging them to buy the younger, greener horse with more “potential” that needs several training rides a week instead of the less fancy BTDT guy that is a Novice packer but not going to go much higher, or even a horse who despite being a bit green is quiet and safe enough that the owner can do the majority of the riding herself but who is also likely to top out at Novice or Training … and by actively avoiding involving them in the vet visits and day to day care any more than absolutely necessary.

But if you’re having fun riding your horse, it doesn’t matter what you’re doing. There will always be people who are better riders than you, and there will always be people who don’t ride as well as you. It shouldn’t matter what level you compete at, or whether you compete at all, and nobody should care that much what anyone else does beyond wondering if you’ll see each other at the show … and the people riding at the higher levels aren’t always the better overall riders and horseman.

[Janet]

@Sticky_Situation

I mean, being less hands-on with your horse and having the trainer work through most things with your horse before you do does IMO tend to make somebody a less skilled rider and less well-rounded horseman than doing all those same things yourself,

As someone who has never been “in a program” where a trainer rides the horse (though I have plenty of lessons) I strongly disagree. I have known both skilled and unskilled, well rounded and un-rounded, from both approaches.

[Janet]

@Sticky_Situation

All I’m saying is that in my opinion, we learn best through doing things hands-on

IMHO we learn best when we have good experiences.

If, the first time a horse and rider try to jump liverpool, they crash and burn, neither the horse nor the rider has learned anything good.

[Pennywell_Bay]

As someone who bought a younger, greener horse- it wasn’t because my trainer wanted me to pay for training rides etc. I bought younger and greener because he was in my budget. Help from a trainer added to his education and my comfort. Lots of ammies do this whether HJ or eventer.

Horse ended up going 1 year before any training rides, which the trainer was positive when I bought him he would need much sooner. Every lesson was “I don’t need to get on him”.

Again- that allows people to buy what they can afford and allows trainer to make money. Having made up my own horses from scratch- I appreciate those who do it. Depending on what stage people are at in life and time and financial constraints- that’s the model that works.

SS is kind of arguing against yourself because buying a Novice packer may teach someone less than a greenie that needs to be in a program. I’ve learned more on my green guy than on my packer horses.

While I agree having fun is most important, how people have fun and achieve their goals is a personal journey. Throwing shade at people who do it different as you is narrow minded.

I hear all the time shade of “well it helps because xxx started your horse”. Or “we’ll when you spend xxx you should be in top ribbons” or “well- I made my horse MYSELF”. People still have to ride the horse. Annoying but rolls off my back because they dont know my journey.

We should be supporting whatever venues have to do to stay around and flourish, support our fellow riders even if the approach differs from ours and cheer loudly for everyone. Not throw shade because someone needs a training ride or an extra practice.

[Sticky_Situation]

I’m not saying you should just bite the bullet and do something you haven’t prepared for that is likely to end badly. You don’t set the Liverpool under a 3’ fence in the scary corner for the first time and hope for the best … all these things, you practice and build up to slowly and do your homework first. Walk over the Liverpool somewhere else, then a little tiny jump, then raise it, etc until you and the horse are ready to tackle the 3’ fence with the Liverpool in the scary corner. Is it guaranteed to go well? No. But if you do your homework and wait til you’re ready it’s more likely to than not.

Just the same as doing a stadium round over unfamiliar fences when you show up prepared.

[Rackonteur]

I agree.

[Sticky_Situation]

@Pennywell_Bay

SS is kind of arguing against yourself because buying a Novice packer may teach someone less than a greenie that needs to be in a program. I’ve learned more on my green guy than on my packer horses.

In your case, with you doing the majority of riding and the trainer just helping out some, you probably did learn more on the green horse … because you were the one doing most of the riding! If the trainer were doing most of the riding and you only got on for a lesson or 2 per week, as happens in some programs, it might be different.

I’m not saying people won’t learn to ride at all if their horse gets training rides, or that it’s good to be fumbling around in your backyard with no trainer input. I’m saying that time on their horse is a big part of what makes people into good riders.

Not throw shade because someone needs a training ride or an extra practice.

People should have as much or as little extra practice and training rides as they want. I just think it belongs at home and at schooling shows, not recognized events.

[Rackonteur]

@Pennywell_Bay

We should be supporting whatever venues have to do to stay around and flourish, support our fellow riders even if the approach differs from ours and cheer loudly for everyone. Not throw shade because someone needs a training ride or an extra practice.

Good point.
After all, eventing is no longer a military sport just for cavalry officers and their horses. The competitors aren’t really carrying dispatches across unfamiliar territory jumping/fording every obstacle that appears in front of them out of the blue.

[EventerAJ]

I can understand what @Sticky_Situation is saying with the Liverpool example. It is this reason (+ budget) that I really prefer starting with green horses, than an “already-going” horse: I know my horses’ holes, how they think through new challenges, and when they need more help. It is part of building the partnership that I enjoy most.

Of course a less experienced ammy rider should set the horse up for success, and that certainly could include pro rides. But I think what SS was encouraging is allowing the ammy rider to feel what it’s like when the horse isn’t sure, and learning how to ride through that. Because there may always be a moment in competition when the horse isn’t sure, hesitates, and needs rider assurance Now in the moment to succeed.