I was intrigued recently by some passages in Margaret Cabell Self’s Horsemanship and Horsemastership in which she suggests that rider and horse can be effectively schooled in hunting by using one or two bloodhounds to follow any old scent. In short, she says that if there’s not a hunt nearby you should just start your own–with yourself, your horse, and a bloodhound. Has anyone here ever tried that?
Do you mean letting some dogs loose to chase game out of season?
Hell no.
That’s called poaching.
If I witnessed that I’d turn 'em in for poaching.
Sorry to be a party pooper but your state has game laws and your first duty is to obey those laws. Your state may or may not have a training season for dogs, or may or may not authorize the use of enclosures (enclosures are very heavily regulated)
Your state also prescribes the manner and season for actively hunting with dogs.
If you need xc schooling do it without letting some dogs loose to chase whatever they want. They’re not lawfully hunting.
No offense.
If you want to learn how hunting dogs are trained, then you can contact local houndsmen and clubs and hook up with someone who can mentor you. Who can teach you the ethics of hunting with dogs, who can help you learn your states game laws, teach you kennel management, etc.
Most hunting with dogs is not done on a horse (that is true across the US).
That book was written for a different era. These days you’d wind up with a criminal conviction and a revocation of your hunting license, as well as a heavy fine.
Hi, JSwan. I get it that most hunting with canine support is not done on horseback (I hunted doves, quail, deer, etc. with an uncle when I was a kid and I shoot sporting clays now), and of course, you’re correct that that book was written for a different era. But game laws existed then as well, so I doubt that Self was enjoining her readers to poach, particularly because she stresses that various non-game things can substitute for the scent of game if you’re following a bloodhound–implicitly, a dead fish, a can of green beans, a dirty diaper, or whatever. She also asserts that bloodhounds have the benefit of not requiring kenneling, can live in the house, etc.
Anyway, I take it you’re saying, “No, I have not tried this.” That’s fine. I’m just asking if there’s anyone out there who actually has tested Self’s advice, because it sounds like a decent way to use time between hunts if you happen not to live smack dab in the middle of hunt country–like, say, someone in Fauquier County, VA.
That’s an interesting concept. Thinking of the things that hunt horses have to become accustomed to, the hounds usually are not that big a problem. Most horses are used to dogs, of course not in the quantity of a pack, but they soon are not bothered by them.
I find young horses are much more troubled by the large groups of horses, and working at speed. The run, stop and stand part of hunting gets them wired. Waiting to jump in a large group can make some unruly too. To get a horse ready to hunt it’s better to ride in groups and mimic these conditions. Adding the hounds in will be easy once your horse can behave in this situation.
Just a suggestion, but have you thought about doing mounted search and rescue? We have a groups around here that follow tracking dogs - not necessarily hounds, but they are working a scent line - on horseback. Maybe you have them in your area, if you google.
Not that I would discourage anyone from getting a bloodhound.
I want one myself - terrific animals, phenomenal noses. I’d imagine you’d want to look for a working, not a show, breeder of course.
You could do both - I mean, if you got a bloodhound, then maybe the SAR folks could hook you up with someone to help you train him/her and the three of you could go out tracking all kinds of things.
Believe it or not Wilfred, I didn’t grow up riding to hounds in the middle of hunt country, VA. So stow the idea that I’m an entitled Virginia horsewoman. Nice try at a personal insult, though.
Your post indicated you wish to “school” your horse, and conclude that the writer suggests forming your own pack. I disagree. That’s not what the writer suggests.
You seem to want to do several things - indicated by the post in this thread as well as several other threads.
In other posts, you have indicated the desire to form your own pack. But you admit you know nothing about hounds or riding to hounds.
Plenty of people have farmer’s packs - but you still need to know how to ride to hounds, how to teach a hound to follow a scent line, and how to take care of horse and hound. As well as be able to ride well enough.
“Any old scent” isn’t just any old scent. It’s called a drag, if it’s artificially laid. You still need to be able to train the hound to correctly work a line. And that includes basic obedience training.
What you asked is if you can just get a bloodhound and teach it to chase any old scent - with the idea that it is a way to teach your horse to foxhunt.
Since you know very little about riding to hounds, know little to nothing about scent hounds, you have no way of knowing if you are “teaching” your horse to ride to hounds or not.
For example, let’s say you turn your bloodhound loose on a rabbit line. The hound dwells. How do you encourage that hound forward? You’re going to be sitting there all afternoon on your horse wondering why that hound is sniffing in circles. Or you might end up putting up lost posters because your hound took off after a deer or mountain lion.
If you’d like to work on your xc skills with your horse, that’s one thing. If you’d like to form your own pack but don’t know how to go about doing that - that’s an entirely different subject.
New clubs are formed all the time and if you’re interested, you might want to contact the MFHA. There may be a few people in your area who are also interested, have the knowledge or finances or hunting experience and you can form a terrific club.
If you’d like to form a farmer’s pack, normally that’s a few experienced houndsmen who get together and hunt.
Regardless, game laws apply; as does experience.
Seriously. If you just get a hound and let it self hunt you’re going to end up with a big freakin’ mess on your hands. And you still won’t have a good hunt horse.
In the writer’s time, most boys grew up hunting small game with their beagle or foxhound. They were night hunters, coon hunters, they did pretty much everything with their dogs, including riding to hounds with their buddies.
The writer writes from that perspective. The world has changed - and if you know nothing about hounds and little about hunting it’s best to hook up with more experienced people and learn.
If there are no mounted packs in your area I’m sure there are houndsmen - at least you can learn about hunting with hounds, and that experience will serve you well if you decide to start your own pack. IF that’s what you want to do.
If you wish to school your horse xc, then school your horse xc. The least of your troubles out hunting is going to be the hounds. It’s riding xc in large groups. Hounds require a completely different skill set.
[QUOTE=JSwan;4944787]
Believe it or not Wilfred, I didn’t grow up riding to hounds in the middle of hunt country, VA. So stow the idea that I’m an entitled Virginia horsewoman. Nice try at a personal insult, though.[/QUOTE]
No, no, no. You simply must believe that I didn’t intend even the tiniest insult (and I don’t have any anti-elitist axe to grind at all; if it so happened that you were an entitled VA horsewoman, I’d say more power to you). Seriously.
As for the rest of your reply, thanks for the info. Seriously.
You’re going through a similar process as I did when I started duck hunting. Trying to realize a goal but not quite sure how to go about doing it. Is that right?
I go out with experienced waterfowlers and their equally experienced dogs. Same thing with coon hunting - I hunt with some locals and my God do they have some nice hounds.
There’s a helluva lot to learn, if your goal is being a houndsman/huntsman. A huntsman posted some great info for me when I was trying to lay a drag for my beagle (who was rioting on deer).
There’s no reason not to pursue creating your own pack/club and it does seem that’s what you’re really interested in. In which case - maybe reaching out to existing clubs (recognized or not) and/or the MFHA is your best bet. There may be a huntsman out there who would be glad to work with you as Master, and clubs eager to welcome another club near them; guiding and mentoring you as needed.
I’m not sure as I’m not a Master but it’s worth a shot.
[QUOTE=JSwan;4944981]
You’re going through a similar process as I did when I started duck hunting. Trying to realize a goal but not quite sure how to go about doing it. Is that right?
I go out with experienced waterfowlers and their equally experienced dogs. Same thing with coon hunting - I hunt with some locals and my God do they have some nice hounds.
There’s a helluva lot to learn, if your goal is being a houndsman/huntsman. A huntsman posted some great info for me when I was trying to lay a drag for my beagle (who was rioting on deer).
There’s no reason not to pursue creating your own pack/club and it does seem that’s what you’re really interested in. In which case - maybe reaching out to existing clubs (recognized or not) and/or the MFHA is your best bet. There may be a huntsman out there who would be glad to work with you as Master, and clubs eager to welcome another club near them; guiding and mentoring you as needed.
I’m not sure as I’m not a Master but it’s worth a shot.[/QUOTE]
Well, it’s a funny thing about my goal. It has continually receded just beyond the horizon and I’ve continually chased it. Three years ago, my goal was to learn the very basics of English riding (on the flat). That quickly morphed into learning to jump. Then I started leasing a horse, whereupon I needed to acquire some tack, so that became part of the goal, too. Then I kind of got interested in eventing, but mainly just the XC piece. Then I got interested in actually buying a horse (which I finally did this month). Somewhere in there, I got interested in hunting. And you pretty well know the rest of the story, I think–three hunts this past season and scanning for opportunities to do more.
Honestly, it didn’t dawn on me that I might be thinking about starting my own pack of hounds until you brought it up, but perhaps on some subconscious level that’s exactly what I have been thinking about. I think the goal just receded further still.
Whoa there now!!
JSwan!! Take a chill pill!!! Good grief my friend! You’re gonna pop a bloodvessel!!! :winkgrin:
I think his question is legitimate and bears some consideration. I’ve done this or a version of it in a way. Not on purpose always. A LOT of horsemen go trailriding with dogs. Forget the bloodhound or even hound part- just riding with a dog or some dogs DOES help prepare a horse for hunting IMHO!! Just like living with dogs helps.
Trailriding w/dog(s) can teach a horse to get used to them running around them, darting out onto the trail, making noise, barking, howling & such. They hear you talk to the dog and learn your “dog” voice! :winkgrin: Gives them something mentally to think about. Desenitizes them to visual startlings or flushing game. The vision/sound of something moving in corn or the brush can scare a horse who isn’t used to it. Multiple dogs can really accomplish this. Teaches horse to not kick at a dog following him or gives you a chance to discipline/train him to respect a dogs presence.
For ex: I once boarded at a farm that had 6 farm dogs of various breeds. They ran loose and LOVED when the boarders rode out and always wanted to join us. I had no choice & owner loved it! Then the 2 labs from next door would join in. So off we’d all go cross country in a hunting territory. We had all kinds of adventures. The local MFH’s farm was also included in our travels. He would laugh all the time about my “farmers” pack when I saw him out riding. Not always but sometimes the dogs would chase things. And sometimes run off always to return home later. I KNOW this was good experience for my young fieldhunter.
One barn had 3 labs who’d go out with me but never leave the first body of water I rode by! :winkgrin: One had 3 Jack Russels who’d just trot along immediately behind my horses heels.
Many dogs & barns have come & gone. Even my own. And often riding out with dogs is a total pain when they go off on things etc. I learned the hard way with a retired foxhound once too. He taught my other dog how to run/chase. You have to be prepared for whatever happens. Including catching/killing game; getting lost; going “outa the territory”; pissing off landowners & such. So yes there’s a downside like JSwan mentioned. But for training a horse for foxhunting? I vote a hearty yes!!!
I agree that riding with dogs helps prepare a horse for hunting. We have a couple of dogs that trail ride with us including a hound that wouldn’t hunt. When I started my young horse for hunting the dogs went with us. My horse about came out of his skin the first couple of times that the hound came blasting out of the underbrush and ran past him. Now the same horse doesn’t care about hounds at all.
Our non-hunting hound will on occasion hunt. We had a great two mile run one day when she latched onto a red fox and another good run when she ran a bear. It happens. When it does take advantage of the training opportunity.
Wateryglen, I disagree. And after what happened in this state I’d think you’d know better.
Foxhunters are sportsmen, first and foremost. It does not matter if we hunt to ride, or ride to hunt. We are part of the hunting population; and must always observe and obey our states game laws.
We are hunting with a dog - and if that dog is lawfully hunting so are we. If we are training that dog to hunt - we do it during the training season, if our state has a season.
Allowing a pet dog to range freely to chase wildlife is NOT lawful hunting, nor is it in keeping with leash laws. (if the locality has one).
If you wish to train a dog using a drag - again - that must be done in accordance with the states game laws.
Foxhunting does not occur in a vacuum. None of us has the right to impact wildlife out of season. We are not entitled to do whatever we want in the name of “training”. And that includes allowing our pet dogs loose to chase wildlife while we ride our horses.
The nonhunting population has been led to believe that houndsmen allow their dogs to just run down and harass wildlife. They believe we do not obey or respect game laws, nor do they believe we adhere to our code of ethics.
The OP is just ignorant - he wants to learn, he has a sincere interest, and I wish him nothing but happiness and success. He’s obviously a good egg who wants to participate in the sport. He’s just exploring options and ideas.
But frankly, I’m very tired of the attitude among some foxhunters that because we’re riding horses, we can do whatever the hell we want. We’re not entitled to make up our own game regulations.
It’s that attitude which gives the sport a black eye. Other sportsmen complain about hound hunters, and game departments don’t appreciate the complaints about us. Most of those complaints aren’t justified.
But many are. And if we want to continue hunting with hounds - OBEY the law.
It is a well documented fact that free ranging dogs create havoc on wildlife habitats. Lawfully hunting with a dog is NOT the same as a free ranging dog. A hunting dog does not impact habitat the same way a free ranging dog does.
Hunting with hounds occurs because states provide exceptions to their free ranging dog laws - permitting a working dog to be off lead. A working dog. When working. That’s it.
When anyone allows their dog to run loose to chase wildlife in the name of “training” a horse - they’re violating game laws.
It’s not Fair Chase. It’s not ethical, and it’s illegal. Every legislative session, there are efforts to ban hound hunting.
Every year, that voice grows louder - and they say houndsmen don’t observe the ethics of Fair Chase. Some wildlife biologists in game depts are starting to join that chorus.
It’s not true but it’s hard to convince people of that when a hunter admits they let their dogs run all over the place.
We had a great two mile run one day when she latched onto a red fox and another good run when she ran a bear. It happens. When it does take advantage of the training opportunity.
This is an example of a HIGHLY illegal activity in this state. It’s not a training opportunity.
You have to be prepared for whatever happens. Including catching/killing game; getting lost; going “outa the territory”; pissing off landowners & such. So yes there’s a downside like JSwan mentioned.
This is also illegal, and an example of why many people want all hunting with hounds banned. Not because of ethical, lawful hunting, but because of people who trespass, poach, or allow their dog to chase or harass livestock.
It’s not a “downside”. It’s illegal and these very examples are used in effort to ban hunting with hounds. The good guys get lumped in with the slob hunters and poachers. With foxhunters, it lends credence to the accusation that we’re a bunch of snobby elitists with no respect for property rights.
Thanks to all who have replied so far. Let me back up and spell out a couple of of the ancillary questions.
-
Is Self’s assessment of bloodhounds accurate? Will they scent anything, and can they do without kenneling? (Note, if you get a buddy to lay a drag with a dead fish, and the bloodhounds are savvy enough to stick to that without chasing something live that piques their curiosity, getting charged with poaching isn’t an issue, is it?)
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How much territory do you need to practice on? It so happens that there’s a decommissioned army base right near where I live, one with a barn that opens onto thousands of acres of trails (and I’ve been thinking of moving my horse there for precisely that reason). I think you could cut loose out there with a horse and a bloodhound and have a good ol’ time, but how much territory is enough territory?
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What do California’s game laws have to say about any of this? (I can investigate that on my own, but clearly, it is one of the ancillary questions.)
It being understood that the main thing that gets horses amped up in the hunt field is other horses (even a newbie like me can pick that up), I find it hard to believe that what Self proposes would not reduce the likelihood of their spooking at sudden movement, noises, etc. beyond what they’d get from mere trail riding.
- What do California’s game laws have to say about any of this? (I can investigate that on my own, but clearly, it is one of the ancillary questions.)
See the regulations on dogs in CA below:
http://www.fgc.ca.gov/regulations/current/mammalregs.asp#265
[QUOTE=Cammie;4946054]
See the regulations on dogs in CA below:
http://www.fgc.ca.gov/regulations/current/mammalregs.asp#265[/QUOTE]
Many thanks!
[QUOTE=pAin’t_Misbehavin’;4944281]
Just a suggestion, but have you thought about doing mounted search and rescue? [/QUOTE]
That never entered my mind, actually. Interesting thought, though.
It is true that bloodhounds can follow days’ old scent; they are most typically used to track humans but yeah, they would track anything you school them to track. There are bloodhound packs in England (well, at least one that I know of via FOL) that do employ a human as quarry, he/she gets a head start and the pack ruthlessly hunts him/her down, my understanding is that the quarry is inevitably accounted for by being licked to death.
I would say, in terms of experience just being around canines in the context of Cabell-Self’s suggestion, that it is really more valuable to just have ‘the barn dogs’ accompanying you on trail rides and having your horse accustomed to hounds nearby, underfoot, popping out of the bushes, and etc. The first time a horse sees a pack coming out of the kennel truck or trailer, it’s often a heart pounding moment, even if they are accustomed to individual dogs. But in my experience, once they figure out that that ‘mass’ is indeed individual canids, they are fine with it, if they are accustomed in general to having dogs around.
Of course, once they figure out that when hounds make a racket there might be some running and jumping involved, that is a different set of issues and potential reactions! A horse I hunted for years knew the difference between hounds being right and hounds rioting…and also could get a little ornery if we were on a gray fox that was merely running in a circle around us, as opposed to a red affording the opportunity for a bit of exercise.
You 're right!
I do agree w/JSwan mostly. She’s right BUT when barn dogs accompany you on a trailride - it ain’t hunting IMHO. And I’m not a hunter nor playing one on TV! And I’m not out there training either. Just ridin’!! Especially when the dogs ownerr approves and it’s on their own land. Or you have no say in the matter because their owner is with you etc. I’m just sayin’ - riding with dogs DOES expose a horse to them. However that may happen. 99% of the time nuthin’ happens but a tired dog! You can’t always control the variables. And I think landowners should always approve the riding with dogs too. Mine have.
This is a good thread though…kinda drives home the idear that we should always be ambassadors for foxhunting and conducting ourselves with class and propriety. There are issues bigger than us to consider.
Mea Culpa! 
Just a suggestion, but have you thought about doing mounted search and rescue? We have a groups around here that follow tracking dogs - not necessarily hounds, but they are working a scent line - on horseback. Maybe you have them in your area, if you google.
from the OP’s post, this is sort of what I was envisaging- someone laying a track, and then sending the hound to follow the track, following the hound on horseback, not some kind of willy-nilly wild “loose the hounds” and hunt anything that moves. Actually, most of our “Fox hunts” around here use drags and do this anyway, they are not actually hunting fox.
I would think you could use any dog you happened to own for this purpose- any dog can be taught to track- no need to go acquire a bloodhound. Actually, the bloodhound people say they should never be off-lead, so I’m not sure how you would handle that from horseback.
Mea Culpa too. The heat has gotten to my good temper.
(that’s my story and I’m sticking to it)
But seriously folks, when we’re in the woods consider how our actions impact the wildlife around us. When we let our pet dogs run loose when we ride - we are not hunting or training. We are allowing our dogs to run free and harass wildlife. This is a problem all over the US.
ALL the science supports the assertion that free ranging dogs wreak havoc.
The reason there is no hunting in the spring and summer (with exceptions based on sound science) is that is when wildlife is rearing its young.
The bear that your dog chases for a mile in the June heat is very likely going to die; or be so sick it will never fully recover. (exertional myopathy). It can take days for the condition to take its final toll. It is gruesome and this time of year, is going to leave its cubs to die as well.
Bear hunters know this; and so are careful during the hound training season as well as the regular season to keep chases short - or not chase at all.
We can’t be expected to know all the laws and regs pertaining to every species that lives around us.
But we can learn and understand the impact our pet dogs have on wildlife - and do our best to mitigate or eliminate that impact. And that includes training a hound to hunt - whether live or drag.
There is no training season for horses learning to foxhunt.
We must train our horses within the limits of our states game laws, take advantage of roading and cubbing and trail riding and xc courses - and leave wildlife alone until we’re legally permitted to hunt.
To do otherwise lends credence to the claims that hunting with hounds should be banned. And in some states, efforts to ban or restrict hound hunting have been successful. People don’t see a person trail riding - they see a foxhunter letting his dog chase and kill Bambi.
Please everyone, just keep that in mind. I mean that in the nicest way possible, and with no malice. And I do apologize to the OP for derailing his thread and I do hope he realizes his goal.
Please do your utmost to honor the principles of Fair Chase, and obey your states game laws. For those not familiar with the concept of Fair Chase - here is a primer. http://www.huntfairchase.com/index.php/fuseaction/ethics.now
It is related to the North American Wildlife Conservation Model (the Seven Sisters of Conservation)
To the OP - Good luck and happy hunting.
