I agree for the most part about the revamping and fall into the last category, barn 1 hour away, job, kids, etc., but how would we revamp the amateur idea for the A circuit? The whole show AA show enterprise is built upon extraordinary wealth and/or loads of free time as the ticket to being the most competitive or being wealthy with trainers in the family, etc. Some of the workarounds to extreme expense include having a 1m / 1.10 jumper or a low adult hunter, but those options won’t meet everyone’s goals. With disappointment I’ve watched more and more of the juniors at our barn take to online school so that they can go to Florida for 3 months a year. What kind of message does this send to these kids? That you can avoid nearly every aspect of the real world so that you can forward your horse habit?
To be fair… this is the case for pretty much every competitive sport. Especially at the National Level. Horse showing is not unique in that aspect! Though perhaps more on par with racing boats and cars vs soccer.
What we do have is a model based upon certain competitor criteria, amateur vs pro, which we are now just throwing to the wind with little enforcement.
Honestly, the best move? Make the incentives better for Developing Pros. Do more prize money, build it out to a Zone/regional championship, as well as the CC finals. Then you’d have the shamateurs move over to chase the bigger money and declare as pros. You’d give young riders an outlet and focal point that allows them to get their name out while not riding under a pro as a sham or just being the home trainer that does all the behind-the-scenes work. Give them scholarships/grants that allow them money to help build their business, buy farmland or inherit with revenue to update/renovate their family’s farmland, along with opportunities in the program to interact with bigger sponsors that can represent them.
Put the classes on Thurs/Fri, as to encourage them to have that bandwidth to also work with their clients on Sat/Sun with little overlap.
Honestly they don’t even need to do that. They need to design a protocol. A set “language” in which systems talk to each other. In the finance world it is FIX. And frankly one of my jobs is maintaining and designing protocols. However, I doubt USEF would spend the money. But the actual protocol spec wouldn’t’ be horribly complicated. It really wouldn’t. Nothing like the FIX spec.
(in case you’re a data nerd like me https://www.onixs.biz/fix-dictionary/4.2/index.html though most of us are on 4.4)
The “Hunter people” generally don’t. Not any more than the jumpers, anyway. They want a healthy Junior and pro track too, if you asked them! In fact, it’s the hunters attending the (extremely popular and often sold out on opening day) B/C shows, if you check the class lists!
I truly dont understand why h/j clings to the ineffective am/pro distinction. Separating divisions by experience creates a much more even playing field. Eventing has had Rider/Horse/Open forever and for the most part riders feel it’s fair. There used to be another division called “restricted” that was for horse AND rider hadn’t completed a level above. Not enough entries to support that so it was dropped.
It’s reasonable to assume riders never showing above 2ft are less skilled than riders showing 3’6", regardless of how they earn their income.
You will still have a scheduling problem that eventing doesn’t have. So you have experienced amateur needing to bring along their green horse. When does low height “horse” division go during the week? Is it effectively the same as when the greens or USHJA classes run now or is it on the weekend when the low adults would run? And does experience expire?
What about the very common scenario of a rider who maybe did the high Jr jumpers and such many years back and is now a working adult happy to have an AA hunter? What if AA hunter needs a step down job from previously doing higher? The levels being entirely appropriate for the horse and rider at this moment. What if both things are true for the same horse and rider pair? Now these groups have to do the performance hunter open divisions earlier in the week? The exact type of thing the amateur rule originally was trying to prevent? And which also works against the working amateur who doesn’t even want to do the AOs anymore.
Don’t the event riders have less of a scheduling issue? Don’t they all go on the same days anyway?
So it would probably matter less to have an amateur division that goes at the same time as everything else, which seems to be a factor for many on the H/J side.
So you have experienced amateur needing to bring along their green horse. When does low height “horse” division go during the week? Is it effectively the same as when the greens or USHJA classes run now or is it on the weekend when the low adults would run? And does experience expire?
All the divisions run over the same course at the same time and are scored seperately.
What about the very common scenario of a rider who maybe did the high Jr jumpers and such many years back and is now a working adult happy to have an AA hunter?
They show in the 3’ Horse Division
What if AA hunter needs a step down job from previously doing higher?
They show in the Open or Rider Division at the lower levels depending on who is riding.
The levels being entirely appropriate for the horse and rider at this moment. What if both things are true for the same horse and rider pair? Now these groups have to do the performance hunter open divisions earlier in the week? The exact type of thing the amateur rule originally was trying to prevent?
That’s a mileage rule problem, not a horse problem. Shows used to manage to be Fri-Sun. They could be again.
Do people really think these issues don’t come up in eventing or in Europe?
Theoretically they could show in a Rider division too if it was similar to eventing rules—as long as you haven’t competed more than one level (so, height in this case) above in the last five years, you’re eligible for that Rider division. In this example I guess it would be that you’d be eligible for the 3’ Rider division as long as you hadn’t shown at 3’6” in the last five years.
Or you can just be lazy like me and enter Open no matter what because it’s too much work to track my eligibility and I can never be wrong in the Open division, lol.
(It’s really not difficult to track, I just don’t care enough to bother because my score will be what it will be no matter what division I’m in and I’m hardly competing for money at my level.)
Experience for the sake of “Rider” divisions expires after 5 years. Horse experience does not expire. Your 20yo GP jumper stepping down to the 2ft puddle jumpers is never eligible for the “horse” division again (and I think that’s fair).
The “Rider” category is actually pretty generous. You are allowed to complete one level above your lowest Rider level. For example: you are eligible for the Novice Rider category even if you’ve competed at Training level. You just can’t run Modified (or Prelim) and still be a Novice Rider. Personally I don’t think you should be allowed to be in the Rider category if you’ve completed (key word: COMPLETED, not “competed and earned a letter”) a level above, but thems the rules. You do occasionally see a “Perpetual Novice Rider” (typically a skilled older ammy who doesn’t want to move up but likes earning ribbons so she doesn’t enter Open) on Fancy Horse 1 also showing in beginner novice rider on Fancy Horse 2, and that’s not the most fair to the true BN riders. But the playing field is never level, only less tilted.
As far as scheduling your week long divisions? The only answer I have for you is Ride Times, enter a week in advance, no add/scratch, and/or set an entry limit (smaller horse trials used to do this all the time: Entry Limit 200, 500, etc. It kept the logistics feasible, and it also pressured riders to enter on opening day or get waitlisted). But I realize that would NEVER happen in the h/j show culture, so I’m not sure how to help you there. Bringing back the B & C shows, for 3ft and under (mostly catering to Rider and Horse divisions) could be a good idea, and save the A shows for higher level & Open classes; Realizing though that throws a wrench into the works, the trainer who wants all the clients in the same show the same week; venues like WEC that run for 10-12 weeks at a time, etc.
It is not really the same course, or at the same time.
(The thing you are responding it is talking about height.)
With the USHJA requirements to earn ratings such as a certain number of rings and dedicated schooling areas of a certain size, minimum prize money, etc., you really cant limit entries or days enough to fit in all the trips on Fri-Sun. This is one reason those smaller shows have died out. And the mileage rule prevents them from coming back along with a shift in many barns of not having a second trainer who might take the young horses and small show clients one place while those trying to qualify for something go to a higher rated show for more points. The other reason that you don’t have A shows run on a few days anymore is because those shows made the numbers work by not having any divisions below 3’ except ponies. The whole show environment has changed, and the ratings requirements prevent them from going back. Used to be, you had some local circuits to show that maybe topped out at 3’ or 3’3”. You showed there until you were a strong rider at their top levels and then you moved onto those Fri-Sun or Thurs-Sun A shows. And those A shows often ran very long days. And then there might be a few weeks in the summer for some destination shows that also squeezed in some unrated classes so your local show friends could spend a week having a big show experience. I guess those divisions make money, right. So we added more rings and more divisions, and now you have to have all that to qualify for a rating and make enough money on the no prize money classes to pay the required prize money for some other classes. Et cetera.
There’s no way to implement and eventing type model to put more categories running on the weekend when the schedule is nowhere like eventing. Without overhauling the rules and direction rated showing has been taking the past few decades.
Thank you for typing this out in a much better manner than I could. We didn’t get to week-long shows for 10 weeks in a row just because we wanted to - there are many factors at play and it slowly ballooned into this over decades. Not saying it’s the best way to do things, but it isn’t a quick “do it the eventing way with ride times and 3 divisions at each height!” solution.
I’m lucky to have decent C shows within a day’s drive - but that’s not the perfect option if you want to jump over 3’ or 3’3" against more than the same 3 people.
OK, I’m not picking on the person as I think she is a wonderful rider and bright star for the future of the sport.
But how the heck is Mimi, who has been named to Nations’ Cup teams, competing in amateur jumpers !? I thought there was a component of the amateur rule that once you’ve been named to a team (but maybe not that team?) you’re not an amateur anymore??
This is the type of stuff that makes me lose all hope, not only of ever making there (too old, not enough $$ and honestly I kinda suck) but if I ever actually eek my way there … or cheer on a friend who can make it there … they’d be competing with someone who has competed internationally for the US?! 
No. Riding on the team has absolutely no effect on amateur status. Because amateur status has nothing to do with skill level.
Ah, another difference between the canadian and US amateur rules.
The Canadian Rules say (page 14):
- Any person who has ridden on a Jumping 5* Nations Cup or a Jumping Major Championship Team is not eligible to compete in the amateur division for a period of two years from the date of the last competition at which the athlete rode on that Team.
A tiny slight nudge in the more equitable direction, I would say …
I’m guessing some professionals are not pumped about having to ride against her either, lol. Fantastic rider, fantastic horses!
I agree. But- like how eventing flexed for ammies to qualify for AECs, you may be 4th in the class,but you are the 1st or 2nd ammy. Classes are run together (you do not get a different ribbon). I know it isn’t apples to apples.
I was reading this thread with moderate interest until I came to this:
@dags, can you explain what you mean?
