Good question and I admit Iām not at all knowledgeable about how dressage is run and should have probably stated that it didnāt matter as much. But from what I could tell, the pros/ams/jrs all ride togetherā¦ (though maybe the ribbons are split?) but thereās no āAdult Amateur First Levelā that takes up all the weekend slots. And competitors are riding for scores moreso than placings, so thereās less emphasis on who gets what ribbons.
It was 20+ years ago so Iām struggling to recall the specifics, but I know they felt like there was still a place for them to be evaluated among their peers at dressage shows, even if they were technically āprofessionalsā per USEF.
I bet more barns would leave their beginners at home to learn vs going in the Walk/Trot classes at WEF if they could more easily find people to teach them while away. This rule change would open up some options for this situation.
And FWIW, this happens at events sometimes too (albeit smaller ones). At the mini trial Iām headed to this weekend, theyāre running BN Open and BN Rider with alternating competitors (i.e., each division taking turns) to make sure everyone has enough time between dressage and show jumping. Theyāre still being scored separately for the divisions, but theyāre running as one large group.
I can see where it could get a bit complicated with the hack schedule-wise but to me thereās no major reason why over fences classes over the same course at the same height canāt be run as an open card.
You really think that the only reason trainers take their beginner students to a horse show is because there is no one left at home to teach them more?
I would think it has more to do with the fact that people want to horse show, people want their kids to horse show, and the barn is going to this horse show anyway so taking their beginners to this fun experience makes sense.
Leaving them at home with some other instructor will only make those people go to some other barn where they are taken to the horse shows.
You hack them first, if possible. If you run ALL the hacks and flats first, back to back, then everyone in the first handful of rotations is already there and ready to go and no one is waiting around for Suzie to wander back up from the barn or free up in the jumper ring.
It doesnāt work with certain types of classes or every show but there are plenty of times you can set the course, run the hacks for the day for that height, jump everyone around on an open card, then run any callback flats or āspecialā classes, then reset for the next height and repeat. Or, hack everyone, get people in rotations and run one or two divisions together before running the next.
We got rid of the jog already, so a little shuffling around of classes and cards seems less wild thanā¦ whatever this rule change is. At least to me.
Reminder that this āfun experienceā comes to the tune of $1000-$2000. Not a ton of folks that have been in the sport for ~12 months jumping up & down at the idea. When they head to another barn, itās often because there is no one left at home to teach the beginners when the show team is on the road.
It is really hard to find up/down instructors and keep them long term.
Yes. I agree that it is expensive and all that stuff.
But, I also do not think that people go to shows just because there is no one at the barn to teach lessons.
Which is what the post I responded to was saying.
Iām going to say something that is super controversial here. Nix the Pro vs Amateur distinction all together.
Itās impossible to police and just creates animosity within the horse world. The label has nothing to do with your riding ability.
Letās be real, what matters more is the size of your wallet. A lot of Amateurās who were born into money or have wealthy families which gives them the ability to put more time, effort, and money into competing than low to mid-level pros can get or do.
If want an example and think distinction between pro and amateur matters, please go to any show and watch the wealthy amateur walk in on their 6 or 7 figure horse, with their Olympic coach and put most of the so-called Pros to shame.
We shouldnāt be punishing people for trying to keep themselves in the sport. If they teach some lessons, do some training rides, sell some horses, etc. who cares. We should celebrate these people as they are doing what is necessary to stay in the sport and setting examples of working hard for something you love to do.
Why would that not be true, then, of every discipline? As long as they give blue, red, yellow, etc. ribbons, itās as much a competition as it is in any other discipline.
Because in hunters you donāt get a score (other than in the classic) and judging is always based on ranking the horses seen THAT DAY. Year end awards are based on points that go off pinning based on ranking that day.
In dressage you always get a score and judging is based on how close you were to ideal that day. Year end awards are based on averaging those scores.
If in a hunter round everyone chipped and ran, someone is still getting a blue. And that blue is worth the same as next week when everyone was so flawless that the judge was breaking ties based on tiny minutiae like whose turnout was better. Both those blues are the same and neither rider knows how close or far they were from the mythical 100.
In a dressage class, if everyone sucked, no one is getting a score over a 50. And that you got a 49 and someone else got a 48 doesnāt mean you were good. It means you sucked the least. You get a score sheet showing where you earned and lost points. And next week when the highest score is a 80 and the lowest was a 79, those people know that they rocked it. Even the lowest person in the high 70s knows they did well. And the people scoring in the 50s arenāt getting a year end award even if they never appeared at the same shows as the people who scored in the 70s.
Donāt kid yourself. One of the things they teach in the judging programs is that judges must rank the class correctly. The class they are seeing THAT DAY.
So what do you propose division be divided by instead?
Show experience? Show results? Annual income? Net worth?
Because a person who is wealthy because they work a full-time job in a high-paying field and can afford a fancy horse but only has time to ride 3x/wk is still going to have an uphill battle against a trust fund kid who can ride multiple 7-figure horses per day, even though theyāre both amateurs.
I donāt know that there is any one way that makes it āfairā for everyone, but Iām not sure reclassifying instructors of beginners as āamateurā is going to make things better overall.
Agreed. Thereās a reason horse shows are adding more and more very basic entry level divisions for beginners, and Iām pretty sure itās not āthe beginners wanted to stay home and learn but they had to come to the show because thereās nobody to teach them since Suzie wants to keep her amateur status.ā
Not @dags and itās been more than a minute since I showed dressage.
Some of the shows would run an open card with open, amateurs, and juniors. In some cases, everyone had to enter the open class and then you could add the junior or amateur for an additional fee, which might have been $20 at the time. What you got for your added fee was an increased chance of getting a prize or a ribbon, which is how I happened to walk off with two blue ribbons and two Del Mar mugs at the end of a pretty large first level class. Riding a TB. If it was a test that could qualify for USDF stuff, you could also tack that qualification on but Iām not sure if there was ever a separate set of ribbons for that.
Other shows ran the amateur division separately. The amateurs often preferred this as there was a perception that the judging was harsher in the open classes, making it harder to get qualifying scores.
For California Dressage Society (CDS) championships, the cutoff percent for a qualifying score was lower to qualify for the amateur division at the championship show. Not sure about USDF regionals (no USDF nationals in my day).
CDS also runs a separate amateur championship (actually three, in different parts of the state) so thatās a bonus for being an amateur.
But, since qualifications and horse of the year standing are based on scores, people tend to care less about ribbons.
Iām not sure how getting rid of the amateur divisions would solve everything. You have everyone in one class, making it theoretically harder for a less experienced person to get a ribbon, and thus points if that matters to them.
I say theoretically thinking about jumpers. I have won and placed well in large open meter classes because over half the class was trainers prepping eq horses and racking up the time faults.
Iām not a judge, but my understanding is that they donāt love dealing with multiple cards in very large classes. Mixing in the amateurs and juniors would make keeping track of those cards plus the open cards kind of complex, at least IMHO.
and I admit Iām not at all knowledgeable about how dressage is run and should have probably stated that it didnāt matter as much. But from what I could tell, the pros/ams/jrs all ride togetherā¦ (though maybe the ribbons are split?) but thereās no āAdult Amateur First Levelā that takes up all the weekend slots. And competitors are riding for scores moreso than placings, so thereās less emphasis on who gets what ribbons.