Who is the best person to contact at the USEA to report a professional competing as an amateur as well as competing in divisions they should not be (i.e.- competing in a Rider division they most definitely should not have been in)? I’ve looked at the contact list on the USEA website plenty of times but I’m not sure who to direct my concerns to. Thanks in advance for any insight.
Not sure which person such an inquiry should be directed to, but as I understand it, a professional could compete in a Rider division, as long as they haven’t competed above the next highest level within 5 years. So simply because a pro was on the Rider division doesn’t mean they are trying to pass their self off as an amateur.
ETA: see appendix 3. http://useventing.com/sites/default/files/USEA_2016_RuleBook_5.6.pdf
Not sure about USEA, but recently found out it costs $200 for someone to put in an anonymous inquiry to the USEF about another person’s amateur status (a friend’s status was challenged). Do you care a possible $200 worth to file a complaint? I know I wouldn’t… Heck, I know more than one person who should have a pro status around here (teach lessons for cash under the table, etc.) but I guess I just figure that is on their moral concious. It really doesn’t matter all that much in eventing anyway.
[QUOTE=GutsNGlory;8702940]
Not sure about USEA, but recently found out it costs $200 for someone to put in an anonymous inquiry to the USEF about another person’s amateur status (a friend’s status was challenged). [/QUOTE]
No it doesn’t. It costs to file an official protest. But if you have information that a pro is competing as an amateur, you can email the USEF with the evidence and they will investigate. amateurinquiry@usef.org
However, just being in a Rider division may not be enough, since you technically can be in a Rider division as a Pro, depending on what else they’ve done.
[QUOTE=DoubleTwistedWire;8702951]
No it doesn’t. It costs to file an official protest. But if you have information that a pro is competing as an amateur, you can email the USEF with the evidence and they will investigate. amateurinquiry@usef.org
However, just being in a Rider division may not be enough, since you technically can be in a Rider division as a Pro, depending on what else they’ve done.[/QUOTE]
What’s the difference between an official protest and an inquiry/emailing the USEF with evidence, then?
OP, make sure you know what defines a professional. I was “investigated” several years ago when I was purchasing, developing, and selling horses for profit. This did not matter to my then amateur status but apparently someone out there thought that it did. If I were developing and selling others’ horses, regardless of profit, then I would not have qualified as an amateur.
Read the rulebook carefully. IF you “report” that person, then this requires that the USEA expend time/resources to determine if your claim is valid. In my case, I received a phone call and I explained my status clearly - and it went no further.
And it is unclear from your post whether you believe that a pro is allowed to compete in a rider division. A rider division has nothing to do with professional status.
I still wonder, to this day, who out there was so bothered/threatened by my amateur status. Amateur status really does not make much difference in the USEA with the exception of the online report of placements. I recall feeling pretty cool after 1* and 2* looking up results for amateurs and seeing how well I did in comparison to other amateurs. Other than that fleeting “pat on my own back,” it really meant nothing.
Yup…really rare to hear of such an issue with eventing because it just doesn’t mean anything other than qualifying for the AECs and leaderboards. I know someone thought I was a pro once because I was helping someone in warm up. I wasn’t reported but they asked if I teach lessons (answer is no). But I was helping someone who worked for me and was riding a horse that I owned. The Rider was a pro…not me even though I have quite a bit of experience.
If someone is producing and selling their own horses, not a pro. Even owning your own farm is not a pro. I have my own farm but do not get paid for training or teaching—trainer leases stalls from me. Only horses that I ride and compete are ones that I own. But if someone is being paid to teach or paid to ride other people’s horses, that is a pro.
I too would suggest that you (OP) explain why you think this person you saw competing is a pro?
Was it in a division you rode in or another?
~Emily
If you are sure what they are doing is illegal you can gather your evidence and present it to a steward at the show. However, eventing rules about being a pro can be a little tricky.
I sent off an email to the USEA late last year regarding a person above me on the year end standings for the Advanced Amateur division. The person who was leading the rankings late in the year clearly advertised herself as an assistant trainer out of a jumper barn and was actively soliciting students. There was even a COTH article on her after Fair Hill where she talked about her business. The USEA sent off a casual inquiry to her and apparently she had gone pro in the middle of the year and didn’t realize that you had to report it mid-year. The pro-amateur rules are complicated and not everyone knows what to do when.
It becomes a little more obvious at the A/3* level who is or is not a pro, especially when there are articles floating around. There’s not many true amateurs hanging out at the top, so yes, I would like the correct year-end ribbon since heaven knows that I didn’t acquire any other pieces of satin last year.
Other than that, the amateur/pro status doesn’t matter squat in eventing, except perhaps for the AEC divisions. A BNR could still be a pro and a PR might well be an amateur.
Well, there are additional prizes and accolades for ammy’s creeping in here & there (I see this as a great thing - pros shouldn’t be the only ones getting prizes & $). I actually think the Rider division should morph into the Ammy division. An outdated division in a very changed sport.
[QUOTE=goodmorning;8704017]
Well, there are additional prizes and accolades for ammy’s creeping in here & there (I see this as a great thing - pros shouldn’t be the only ones getting prizes & $). I actually think the Rider division should morph into the Ammy division. An outdated division in a very changed sport.[/QUOTE]
I think your proposals are terrible ideas. Why would you want to emphasize the pro/ammy faux distinction over the current Rider competition experience criteria. The current system of Rider divisions is far less subject to flat out cheating and manipulation and far more reflective of actual experience.
Why would you want to increases the cost of participation for everyone to subsidize the competition costs of a few winners? Prize money for ammys is a tax on all competitors. I don’t want to pay more at every competition I enter all year so that the winner of my division gets to show for free.
[QUOTE=GutsNGlory;8702959]
What’s the difference between an official protest and an inquiry/emailing the USEF with evidence, then?[/QUOTE]
No idea, other than the cost. But if someone is, like in Divine Comedy’s example, out there in publication as a pro, and advertising their services, while also competing in an Amateur section, you can just pass that along to the USEF and they will follow up. I’ve done it once, with a similarly blatant instance, though not in Eventing. Shamateurism isn’t such an issue in Eventing as it is in H/J land, because it really matters less. But the rules are the same.
[QUOTE=goodmorning;8704017]
Well, there are additional prizes and accolades for ammy’s creeping in here & there (I see this as a great thing - pros shouldn’t be the only ones getting prizes & $). I actually think the Rider division should morph into the Ammy division. An outdated division in a very changed sport.[/QUOTE]
This would be great.
I often have felt that maybe this would work:
Ammy - BN, N, T, P, I, A - this could include a mix of experience from both horses and riders, just rider must be an ammy
Just plain - BN, N,T,P,I, - for people and horses who have not competed above the respective levels (or in the last 5 years)
Open - BN,N,T,P,I - for everyone else.
Maybe this is too simple, or I am missing something glaring.
[QUOTE=redalter;8704075]
This would be great.
I often have felt that maybe this would work:
Ammy - BN, N, T, P, I, A - this could include a mix of experience from both horses and riders, just rider must be an ammy
Just plain - BN, N,T,P,I, - for people and horses who have not competed above the respective levels (or in the last 5 years)
Open - BN,N,T,P,I - for everyone else.
Maybe this is too simple, or I am missing something glaring.[/QUOTE].
Those options already exist for organizers. They just never fill so they rarely offer an ammy division…but everytime you enter you can rank that you want an ammy division if offered. I’m most certainly an ammy rider and rarely select that as an option. I have no issue riding against a pro. And find it satisfying that I can compete with them. The Rider divisions I think do far more at fairly dividing a division than ammy status.
[QUOTE=redalter;8704075]
This would be great.
I often have felt that maybe this would work:
Ammy - BN, N, T, P, I, A - this could include a mix of experience from both horses and riders, just rider must be an ammy
Just plain - BN, N,T,P,I, - for people and horses who have not competed above the respective levels (or in the last 5 years)
Open - BN,N,T,P,I - for everyone else.
Maybe this is too simple, or I am missing something glaring.[/QUOTE]
That would have to be a huge show to fill all those divisions. You also have junior/young rider divisions in a lot of shows. But the smaller shows that only have 100/150 shows would have some very small divisions.
Maybe folding in the “ammy” divisions into the “just plain” divisions. I know now that the ammy divisions don’t fill enough to stand alone.
[QUOTE=DoubleTwistedWire;8704062]
No idea, other than the cost. But if someone is, like in Divine Comedy’s example, out there in publication as a pro, and advertising their services, while also competing in an Amateur section, you can just pass that along to the USEF and they will follow up. I’ve done it once, with a similarly blatant instance, though not in Eventing. Shamateurism isn’t such an issue in Eventing as it is in H/J land, because it really matters less. But the rules are the same.[/QUOTE]
Well I guess I would advise someone to choose their wording wisely when approaching USEF then regarding an individual’s amateur status. 
This seems similar to a friend of mine who stated she wanted to “protest” the results at a show last fall because they gave her a rail in stadium… and she had a clear round. She had video evidence but was required to submit a $100 check to officially protest the rail. She then had to get the show videographer to show the TD her round to prove she was clean (her personal video did not suffice apparently). I guess if she had said she wanted to submit an inquiry it would have been different.
I think the way the USEA does it is quite fair and as another poster mentioned, less likely for any “shamateurs” since it’s based on competition history.
Overall, I think the Rider, Horse, and Open divisions do a pretty good job keeping divisions fair and competitive. Ages ago, there used to be a “Restricted” division, in which both horse and rider could not have competed above that level. It didn’t often fill, so I suppose that’s why it fell out of favor.
The problem I see with the “Rider” divisions is that it is too lenient… for example, I last competed Advanced in 2009. I am currently competing successfully at the Intermediate level. Yet, according to the USEA x-entry system (which automatically lists your qualifications) I am eligible to enter a TRAINING RIDER division. What? Why on earth should I be able to compete against first-time training level riders, when I have competed at the CIC2* level THIS SEASON? I don’t do that, of course, but it is technically legal.
Along that vein, I have been to several horse trials in which a few riders are entered on multiple horses in the BN-Rider and N-Rider divisions at the same show. Some of these individuals are usually very competitive (winning) at both levels, and I feel sympathy for the truly BN riders who deserve a better shot at that ribbon. But, them’s the rules, so it’s not illegal. IMO, if you are consistently placing at the level, and have no desire to move up, it seems fair to enter the Open divisions and give yourself more of a competitive challenge.
