If an event is going to try to start giving prizes and ribbons to over half of each division, I’d rather that they just give an awesome competitor’s bag to everyone.
Some of the discussions on this thread are excellent examples of just why the Horse/Rider/Open division splits are the best answer. There are no gray areas or loopholes to be exploited, and a boarding barn owner hopping on a boarder’s horse for a group trail ride because her own threw a shoe won’t make her suddenly ineligible for the Novice Rider division if she otherwise qualifies.
Not sure if someone is in the correct division? Just look up their USEA record, no additional research or private investigators needed 
Another ammy here who would hate to see an ammy division at every show and every level. Speaking as someone who throws her hat in the ring in divisions against Olympic riders with their Olympic mounts in Olympic qualifiers, I’d rather not be getting ribbons when for a score that doesn’t deserve them. Just competing is enough.
The only exception for me is the USEA year end awards where it is nice to get a big fat ribbon in the mail at the end of the year based on Amateur points. But I wouldn’t get my panties in a wad if even that went away.
I agree with the above - the rider /open divisions are the way to go. I am a very average amateur and I have beat both my own coach (an active LF **** rider at the time) AND an Olympic veteran - both were in an Open Training division with me and I and my horse, just getting confirmed at the level, had a very good day.
I like it the way it is and I would never want to feel as though I had to question the status of fellow riders. Ick!
[QUOTE=GutsNGlory;8704562]
Well I guess I would advise someone to choose their wording wisely when approaching USEF then regarding an individual’s amateur status. 
This seems similar to a friend of mine who stated she wanted to “protest” the results at a show last fall because they gave her a rail in stadium… and she had a clear round. She had video evidence but was required to submit a $100 check to officially protest the rail. She then had to get the show videographer to show the TD her round to prove she was clean (her personal video did not suffice apparently). I guess if she had said she wanted to submit an inquiry it would have been different.[/QUOTE]
Yes, an Inquiry to the TD is free. If you are not happy with the TD’s decision, you can inquire of the PoGJ. (PoGJ can over rule TD, not the other way round). If you don’t like THAT, THEN you can pay money to file a protest, which will go to an appeal committee.
[QUOTE=Winding Down;8705036]
I disagree. You can say anything for anything, obviously. But the key to pro status is compensation for riding or training. Period. Read the rulebook.[/QUOTE]
Nope.
Read GR1306 4 c and 4 f.
Years ago there was a rider who was hired by a big barn to be their book keeper. But in reality, she spent all day, every day, riding and training their young horses. At the weekends she competed in the Amateur Owner divisions on her own horse.
When challenged, she claimed she was NOT being paid to ride, she was being paid to keep the books.
So as a result, the USEF put in rules that say that, if you get paid for ANYTHING (mucking, braiding, book keeping, babysitting), and you ride or train a horse that is owned, boarded, or trained by the person paying you money (or other “remuneration”, such as discounted board), you are no longer an amateur.
Similarly, if you ride or train a horse for which you, or a family member, are being paid for boarding, you are no longer an amateur.
The unintended consequences stink, but that is what the rules say.
[QUOTE=Winding Down;8705049]
Interesting. So if I take a lesson on my boarder’s horse because mine is lame, then I am a pro. Wow.[/QUOTE]
Well, you may or may not be a “Pro”.
But you are DEFINITELY no longer an USEF-Defined-Amateur.
Like Divine Comedy I rid in the open divisions. I don’t see the need to split them out. If I want a ribbon that badly then I’ll go to the store and buy one. Eventing is one of the few sports you can compete with the best in the world on an even playing field. I can’t pick up my golf clubs and enter a USGA event.
Thank you everyone for the replies, had a busy week and this was the first chance I had to come back to check on this thread.
I am perfectly aware that a Pro can legally compete in a Rider division. This particular person competed (and completed) at Prelim less than a year ago and was competing in a Beginner Novice Rider division.
The person I am referring to is a local trainer for a nearby eventing facility, she is at both rated and schooling shows with multiple students that she openly coaches. Additionally, she is listed on her employer’s website as their eventing trainer and one of my employees knows her personally and has confirmed that she not only gets paid for teaching and training, but also receives free board for her horse.
I absolutely considered that she may have simply not changed her amateur status last year when she first began teaching at this facility, but she is still listed as an Amateur this year, even after she renewed her membership. Normally I would not care so much about something so seemingly trivial but I have my own students that are competing against this person in divisions she should not be in, which is unfair to them. It is also frustrating to see her qualifying for things such as Area Championships off of her Amateur placings, which she shouldn’t be getting. It is completely unfair to everyone else who is actually an Amateur.
Again, thank you everyone for your help!
This person may not know that she is still listed as an amateur (doubtful, but possible).
She definitely should know that she is not qualified to be in a BegNov RIDER division, however!
[QUOTE=Janet;8709289]
Nope.
Read GR1306 4 c and 4 f.
Years ago there was a rider who was hired by a big barn to be their book keeper. But in reality, she spent all day, every day, riding and training their young horses. At the weekends she competed in the Amateur Owner divisions on her own horse.
When challenged, she claimed she was NOT being paid to ride, she was being paid to keep the books.
So as a result, the USEF put in rules that say that, if you get paid for ANYTHING (mucking, braiding, book keeping, babysitting), and you ride or train a horse that is owned, boarded, or trained by the person paying you money (or other “remuneration”, such as discounted board), you are no longer an amateur.[/QUOTE]
Could you braid manes for any ole person (but not ride or board or train any horses), and still be an ammy? For some reason, I thought it was any horse-related income whatsoever, with the exception of boarding.
[QUOTE=KayBee;8709483]
Could you braid manes for any ole person (but not ride or board or train any horses), and still be an ammy? For some reason, I thought it was any horse-related income whatsoever, with the exception of boarding.[/QUOTE]
Yes, you can braid. You just can’t get paid to braid a horse if you are paid by a person who also owns a horse that you ride. It’s getting paid for riding/ training/ teaching OR anything that could possibly be construed as riding or training or teaching. If you never ride/ train a horse you don’t own, and never give riding or training advice to anyone who might possibly give you money or favors for any reason, you are totally safe.
You can board, braid, be a vet/ farrier/ dentist/ chiropractor, be a USEF judge, clip horses etc.
Can anyone summarize the thinking behind the history of the Rider criteria? If I were waving my wand I think I might say if you have completed an event at the next level up in the past 5 years, or have ever completed an event 2 levels up, your no longer qualify for Rider at that division.
So if you’ve ever completed a Prelim, you won’t ever be a Novice or BN Rider. If you rode Prelim in college/10 years ago/whatever, you could ride as a Training Rider 5 years after your last Prelim, but you wouldn’t ever be a Novice Rider again.
I don’t care really deeply about the issue, but I’m curious what the discussions have been when it has changed…
Now I see where the OP is coming from - it’s more about the year end points that the pro is getting rather than the actual division they are competing in because of the way USEA tracks amateur points. But if the “pro” competed in Prelmin, can she compete at Beg Novice? I seem to recall that you could compete at a level X number of times and still compete at a lower level but once you competed X times you had to go in the open divisions. Is that still correct?
Since the divisions the OP is talking about are typically not USEF recognized then USEF has no jurisdiction over those divisions (which means no filing a protest w/ USEF). So I would contact USEA, send them a print out of the website pages where it shows that the rider is their trainer/pro etc and see what USEA has to say, and/or if these are area points you’re going after, take it up w/ your Area representatives too.
Good luck
I actually just asked Malcolm about this. USEF(not USEA) is responsible for dealing with Amateur issues, even for people who are USEA members but NOT USEF members . The USEF DOES have jurisdiction.
So the correct process, either for questions or to provide information that someone is not and Amateur, is to email amateurinquiry@usef.org
[QUOTE=Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl;8709731]
Can anyone summarize the thinking behind the history of the Rider criteria?[/QUOTE]
Current rule is
Open to competitors who have not completed an event above the next highest level in the 5
years preceding the date of the competition, e.g. a Novice Rider may have completed an event at Training level,
but not Preliminary level or higher in the 5 years preceding the date of the competition;
In the past it has been 2 years and one (not two) level up. Sometimes the phrase “more than once”. They have gone back and forth between “competed” and “completed”.
At the rule change discussions, one of the points that comes up is that the person who TRIES the next level up, but decides they are not ready, and drops back down, should still be able to compete in Rider.
[QUOTE=Winding Down;8709465]
She definitely should know that she is not qualified to be in a BegNov division, however![/QUOTE]
She would still be qualified for BegNov. But NOT for Beg Nov RIDER.
[QUOTE=Janet;8709772]
She would still be qualified for BegNov. But NOT for Beg Nov RIDER.[/QUOTE]
Yes, this was a typo/omission on my part, of course, duh…
[QUOTE=Janet;8709770]
Current rule is
In the past it has been 2 years and one (not two) level up. Sometimes the phrase “more than once”. They have gone back and forth between “competed” and “completed”.
At the rule change discussions, one of the points that comes up is that the person who TRIES the next level up, but decides they are not ready, and drops back down, should still be able to compete in Rider.[/QUOTE]
So then what was the train of thought about moving it back to 2 levels up and 5 years? Under those criteria David O’Connor could legally compete BNR should he choose to. If we’re trying to make the Rider divisions a place where people don’t have to compete against ex-Olympians, that’s a very poorly done rule… Heck, the highest Mike Plumb has competed in the past 5 years has been Training, so he’s eligible as Novice Rider?? That’s weird.
[QUOTE=Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl;8709939]
So then what was the train of thought about moving it back to 2 levels up and 5 years? Under those criteria David O’Connor could legally compete BNR should he choose to. If we’re trying to make the Rider divisions a place where people don’t have to compete against ex-Olympians, that’s a very poorly done rule… Heck, the highest Mike Plumb has competed in the past 5 years has been Training, so he’s eligible as Novice Rider?? That’s weird.[/QUOTE]
Yes, there are these (rare) exceptions. But overall, I still think it is an okay rule and I SERIOUSLY doubt that an ex-Olympian would take advantage of this rule. Heck, I know someone who hasn’t competed above Novice in 10 years and she is too “proud” to put herself in a rider division.
I have not competed above Novice since 2014 and I have no intention of going out and competing in BN-Rider in the near future. I just wouldn’t, because I think it would be taking advantage of the rule…
and announcing to the world that yes, indeed, I haven’t had my butt up there for so many years, :lol:
