Problem with stopping on trail

[matryoshka]

The young Arab I’m bringing along is 4 and will be 5 in May. I didn’t ride her until last fall for the very reason Icecapade is talking about. She came to me as a “training problem” as a late three-year old. I figured she needed more time to grow up. Turns out that I was right, given that I haven’t found her hard to work with. We do a couple miles of trail at a time–enough for training but not enough to make her act out from stress.

I assumed the OP is doing the same thing, despite the horse bing a year younger. I’m used to OTTB’s who at 3 yo may already be working on their second career. It throws me off to think of a 3-year old as a baby, regardless of breed. Doesn’t make it any less true that some horses need more time to grow up before accepting an adult horse’s work load.

It is possible the OP’s mare is simply too young for what is being asked of her, in which case she is likely to exhibit “problem” behaviors. It definitely needs to be considered as a cause.

Icecapade, I’ll get back to you on some possible dates to meet at Fair Hill. The snow has really messed with my trimming schedule, and I’ll be working the next few weekends to make up for it. Love the snow, hate that it puts a monkey wrench into my work schedule, which messes up my riding schedule! I finally got boots for Frank. He’s not fit, but he won’t be ouchy out on the trail.

[Lifting_Chickk]

Understanding forward - obedience

Whether from fear or stubborness, or both, it sound like your mare is testing your leadership skills.

That being said, she is so young! Back up in her training and re-inforce forward from the leg.

Leg means go, no questions asked…even when they are scared.

My horse was (and still is!) very, very willful. Until I had her well trained that leg meant “GO”, she would balk and the drop of a hat and flat REFUSE to move!!!

All the whips and spurs in the world would not make her budge.

We backed up and did more schooling on increasing her understanding of my role as her rider, and her knowledge of what the leg means.

Yes, I use spurs. They back up my leg if she chooses to ignore it without them.

Yes, I carry a whip. However, now that she is better from the leg, I seldom use it.

• My mare did not have a good understanding of my role as leader until her 7th year! She would constantly test, and it has taken this long (4 years) for us to come to an agreement.

• She still tests even now as an 8 year old, but instead of flat out “I’m not moving and you can’t make me” response to balking, I get “Oh yeah…I’d better go forward because the leader said so and if I don’t, she’ll be on my case until I do”.

This is a quiet persistence. Waving of whips, kicking, violence…does not work. It shut my horse down.

I learned to be quietly persuasive. She balks? The leg goes on…and STAYS on until she goes. This is incremental from a little leg…to more pressure…to more pressure…to using the spur, until she concedes.

It has worked with my mare…who has been a very difficult horse in this way.

You need to be patient with your young horse. Patient, consistent, calm…do not let yourself get frustrated or emotional! They are pitfalls that are so easy to become stuck in…

As one of my previous instructors told me, “leave your emotions at the arena door”.

It is good advice anytime you are training a horse.

[wateryglen]

just my 2 cents.

I’m bringing along 2 perch/qh fillies that are 5 and undersaddle a year. Balking out on the trails alone is a regular part of their repertoire. It tends to occur at the start or first 1/4 mile and when we turn away from home. They are pretty “duh” about it but can have brat attacks to go home. Usually they just stop and respond to escalating aids eventually. Sometimes there’s a spin/squeal/buck or something when I am emphatic we ARE going on. (Never let them see you sweat! :winkgrin:)
First thing ; keep them facing in the direction YOU want to go. I don’t allow any turning away. Second; try to keep them moving. Even a few steps sideways is moving and sometimes disengages their refusal and get you going forward. Sometimes I change direction but still in the direction I want just different. If they won’t go up the trail then I go off the trail into the woods. Wind around some trees a few yards, distract them and go back onto the trail further on. Works EVERY time!
Sometimes I will just let them stop, think & I sit quiet & talk to them. NOT asking them to move on sometimes confuses them! Their ears flip back & forth like “now what do I do”? Wait THEN ask for forward and usually they’ll sigh & go. I call this my "Bore them to death " technique!!!
In these months of trailriding; very few balks in company. It’s usually when alone and never outa fear. It’s barn sourness, reluctance, laziness perhaps. They tend to balk at the same places too. Sometimes I will ask them to repeat going forward or turning up a trail until I sense they’ve given in. Often I only need a stern voice to get them forward. They know moms mad voice!!!
The escalating aids thing is important but add “distractions” & “boring them to death” & "keep “em moving” to your arsenal !! I don’t think it’s a big thing and it’s going away gradually.
I trailride w/a crop on one horse and both crop/spurs w/the other. Use is varied by their personalities. Also I use the crrop on different places on them; not always in the same place. It’s got a nice popper so it’s louder not harsh. I think of it as a “distraction” device!!
I’m not bothered by balking; I know it’ll go away. It’s my job to make that happen. Gotta be patient w/babies!!

[Finn_sMom]

[QUOTE=Jaegermonster;3860280]
My young mare did this too when I first started trail riding her alone. … With my mare, once she started this I didn’t take her out unless I had a lot (like several hours) of time to deal with it. When she would do the stop thing, we just stood there. And stood there. And stood there. Forward is always ok, but not turning around and not back.
Once time we stood there for about 2 hours. In the same spot. She finally took about 4 steps forward, I petted her and gave her a carrot, turned around and headed home. QUOTE]

I’ve had success with Jaegermonster’s philosophy. My horse never has had an issue about going out, but was fearful of crossing bridges. Even nice wide sturdy looking ones. I went out with lots of time to spend, and also stood there looking at the bridge for a long long time. Every time he would take a step in the forward direction, I would praise him. No other options… it finally worked. I think this might work with your going forward issue.

[gothedistance]

@April MD;3859917

The problem is that she has an exceptionally determined nature, and is willing to sit there and take the abuse for far longer than I would like. Sure she does continue on after a minute or so, but it doesn’t seem to be dissuading her from the next time she wants to stop. … So I am looking for some more creative ideas. Or for the experiences of someone who has dealt with this precise issue.

Hoo, boy. :no: This sounds JUST like a mare I had once for 9 months before she went back to the auction from whence she came.

The bad part about a horse that just “doesn’t care” how much punishment you dish out is … they rarely, if ever, come around to being an honest worker. Back in the old days horses like this were referred to as nappers, and they ended up spending their entire lives at the horse auctions (“horse fairs”) going from one hand to another because… no one wanted one in their stables!

So… I’ll give you my personal advice in a PM, and it is up to you to decide if it will work for your horse.

[pines4equines]

Hay

I like wateryglen’s response but one thing I’ll add is sometimes it’s usually at the same spot or relatively the same spot on the trail that they’ll stop. You know it’s coming so rock your seat bones back and dig in with each step. Right seat bone, then left. Add alternating leg as well. The seat can “mean it” too!

Good luck!

[CanterQueen]

I had a similar problem with a new horse, but he was 11 years old when I got him (bad habits, bad training, lack of training, whatever). Going out alone was stop and fight, go, stop and fight. So, I took a buddy out with me on a seasoned mount. Buddy would be in front and if mine stopped they just kept going. I did all the aids – tap, tap, tap with a crop, kick with the heels, back up, etc., but it was the loss of his friend that seemed to make him move forward. Now, we did this A LOT and pretty soon he just stopped stopping. Forward became the way to go. Now I can take him out alone and he will hesitate if he’s fearful/scared/sees a horse eating squirrel, but he only hesitates for a moment, the we’re off again without an issue. Just IMHO.

[rainechyldes]

[QUOTE=Shadow14;3860140]
Your going straight to hell along with Vickey and myself. Well two pretty girls in hell can’t be all that bad for me?:lol::lol::lol:[/QUOTE]

lol:)

to the OP - I thought she might be. (Stopping on the way home to.) this shows the stopping is disobedience -more so then the " I’m frightened to go forward"

most horses will travel happily in the direction of home - so sounds definitely like you are looking at being assertive more so then coddling her at this point to get her to move out.

the appy mare I had was awful for balking - I did cure it but… - I finally caved and sold her as a ring horse, she was happy as all get out in the ring, but a non moving endurance horse…mmm no worky for me. Plus I didn’t care for her much in other ways so she moved to a new home where we were both happier. so not entirely related to her trail habits.

[Jaegermonster]

Wanted to add that my young mare was about the same age at that time as the OPs horse. She’s a TB, FWIW(homebred not OT). We were only going out for maybe 20 minute walks down my private dirt road. At that age you don’t want them thinking every time you get near them it’s going to be some 3 hour marathon ride.
Unless they want to stand still and look at a tree for 2 hours LOL although that was her choice not mine, I was ready to go in any time

She just came 6, and like another poster, she has tested me quite regularly and now that she is maturing it’s all coming together and she is respecting my veto power more these days

[Beverley]

I am not one to wait in the same spot for a horse to ‘decide’ it can go four steps for even a few minutes, let alone a couple of hours. If I ask a horse to go forward, anywhere, and it doesn’t, whether because of fear or recalcitrance- well, that is a disobedience that needs to be sorted out in a timely manner.

For me, step one is of course that the basic skills have been acquired and practiced in an arena setting. If one ‘might’ use a stick on the trails, waiting until a stressful moment on the trails isn’t the time to introduce the stick- carry it in the ring and teach the horse what it’s for.

If a greenie stops with me on the trails, I’ll probably let it sit for a minute and take things in, and then, I am going to ask for movement. If forward appears unlikely, then it might just be a tiny circle to the left or right. The choice for the horse soon becomes- either go forward as asked or we’ll just keep circling right here. If the reason for the stop is some horse eating item on the trail- I’m going to be looking away from that object, down on the opposite side, where I expect the horse to next put its front foot- that conveys to the horse that what ‘they’ think is scary really isn’t, paying attention to where it’s about to step is important.

If all else fails, or looks like it might fail, or if I am in a bad spot (near or on a road, for example)- I might just dismount and lead past scary item (or lead recalcitrant horse) 10 yards or so, then remount and resume. To me, the most important thing is, the horse WILL move forward, scared or not, testing me or not, stubborn or not. The biggest part of training any horse is, they have to learn that a) rider can and should be trusted when things are contrary to horse’s instincts, and b) ya gotta do what the rider asks. Now.

[Jaegermonster]

I agree with you Beverly generally. But with this particular horse during that point in her training she was ready and willing to go from half dead to knock down drag out fighting
in about 2 seconds just because she could. So I had to figure out another way to slay the dragon. And with her it worked.
Now she’s fine, forward is no problem. We whip in 4 days a week at two hunts

[April_MD]

[QUOTE=Jaegermonster;3860280]
My young mare did this too when I first started trail riding her alone. She wasn’t scared just being hardheaded.
If they’re scared it’s a whole different ball game, then you have to show them that it’s ok and they can trust you. If they are scared and you start with the crop that only teaches them they were right to be scared.
With my mare, once she started this I didn’t take her out unless I had a lot (like several hours) of time to deal with it. When she would do the stop thing, we just stood there. And stood there. And stood there. Forward is always ok, but not turning around and not back.
Once time we stood there for about 2 hours. In the same spot. She finally took about 4 steps forward, I petted her and gave her a carrot, turned around and headed home.
After that we only had about one or two more stop incidents and that was it.[/QUOTE]

HA! That’s a good idea!!! I am going to try that tomorrow! Thank you! And what did you do if she tried to eat? Not let her? ask her to stand perfectly still and do absolutely nothing unless she wanted to move forward? Brilliant!

[Beverley]

@Jaegermonster;3863788

I agree with you Beverly generally. But with this particular horse during that point in her training she was ready and willing to go from half dead to knock down drag out fighting
in about 2 seconds just because she could. So I had to figure out another way to slay the dragon. And with her it worked.
Now she’s fine, forward is no problem. We whip in 4 days a week at two hunts

Indeed, ALL training principles are subject to revision or modification on a moment’s notice! My number one rule is, don’t pick a fight you can’t win! I’ve known some that probably would have been subjects for the approach you used.

[Jaegermonster]

[QUOTE=April MD;3863936]
HA! That’s a good idea!!! I am going to try that tomorrow! Thank you! And what did you do if she tried to eat? Not let her? ask her to stand perfectly still and do absolutely nothing unless she wanted to move forward? Brilliant![/QUOTE]

exactly. Basically the same thing you would do with one that wanted to argue about the trailer. You want to stand there all day, fine. No eating til you go forward. No backing up, no going sideways. Period. My mare was such a shit. She even stood in the trail with one hind leg cocked and chilled, thinking I would give up. But nope. We stood and stood and stood. Once she tried to back up and I made her back up about 20 yards down the trail until she practically begged me to let her stand still. It was about 10 minutes after that she decided forward was a good thing and I never had another problem after that.

Just make sure you have the time to follow it through if you are going to try to wait one out. Once you start it you have to follow it through. So also pick a shaded trail if it’s hot out or otherwise dress for the weather. Don’t do it if you only have a limited time and then you have to go to work or get the kids or whatever. Plan on making it a day, take a saddle bag with some snacks and a drink holder. I’m serious. I Packed for the long haul and made a day of it. I actually sat there and ate a sandwich and everything. She kept cocking an ear at me, like she was wondering why I wasn’t picking a fight and laying into her about it this time. It was actually pretty funny. She’s quite a character.

[JackSprats_Mom]

You’ve had some great replies.

Two other points, how is she in the arena? My guess is maybe some of the same issues? If so deal with it there too.

The other thing I would suggest is stopping it before it startes when you’re out in company ie its not unusual for youngsters to stop when leading, personally I would only lead for a short period of time then back to following, then lead again. Let her be comfortable, but get her out of the lead before she stops.

Watch videos of nearly any discipline and everyone wears spurs.
Shadow- this is because at the competition level spurs are used for refinement not go! Go should be from a light leg. Now I’m not against spurs but to argue that nearly everyone wears them is not sensible.

While I’m certainly not saying you should let her get away with this, one other thing to consider is some horses are leaders and some are not…she needs to do as you say BUT she may never really want to lead.

[Draftlover]

Problem with stopping on trail

Looks like I’m out numbered on this one. 60 years, 50years 10years experience or not. What I do, produces responsive, happy to please horses!!..Anyone who says they know everything about horse, really knows nothing at all!!

[Jaegermonster]

[QUOTE=Draftlover;3864866]
…Anyone who says they know everything about horse, really knows nothing at all!![/QUOTE]

exactly. We can all learn from each other and there are many ways to accomplish the same goal.