Problem with stopping on trail

[Slaters_mom]

Hi everyone, I am having a bit of an issue with my young mare (3yo, coming 4). She started trail riding at the beginning of fall last year. I have taught many horses to trail ride, but this is a problem I haven’t seen before.

When I first began taking her out, she always always had an experienced leader (if not several) to show her how things are done. I did not push the issue of her leading, unless I felt as if she wanted to go first. As young horses will do, she would occasionally lose her “nerve” and see something that was scary on the trail. Instead of forcing her, I chose to allow a more experienced horse to pass us, therefore showing her how it is done.

Now it has been several months since she first began trail riding. She has decided that since I didn’t pick fights with her to force the issue before, this means that she can just STOP dead in the middle of the trail any time she is leading. She does spook sometimes, but mostly she will just come to a dead halt. No amount of pleading or cajoling will get her to move forward. :mad:

As you can imagine, this causes me all manner of frustration! I have taken to carrying a crop, but I don’t want to beat my horse every hundred yards because she decides to stop.:no: I know there has to be a better way to convince her that stopping is not a way to get out of having to work or having to be brave.

Before the weather turned unrideable, Everytime she stopped, I started to circle her and trot several circles as the rest of the horses passed us and moved on ahead. I didn’t get a chance to do it enough to see any improvement.

Any ideas? I am at my wit’s end!

[twofatponies]

I can’t suggest a specific technique, but I can offer that I had a horse that did this and she grew out of it after one and a half years of trail riding. I think she just got some confidence!

She was always a follower, and would sometimes catch up to the leader, but never pass. If we asked her to go first she would constantly stop and look behind her, hoping someone else would lead! We didn’t have an agenda such as competing, so it didn’t really matter.

I don’t know what happened, but one day there she was, leading the way home. And then one day there she was, leading the whole ride.

It definitely was easier to get her to lead on the way home, and I was working on teaching my other horse to slow down on the way home, and not rush if she got passed, so I think in the process Ms. Follower started practicing leading, and gradually got confident to lead outbound as well as homeward bound.

Maybe that’s one way to try working on it? Assuming you have a partner you can work with?

[Shadow14]

I broke my new 3 year old Rio on Sunday Sept 21st and by Wednesday Sept 24 I was out running trial alone. I believe in spurs, most here don’t and I can’t handle a whip and reins at the same time. I use spurs to bump him. Yes we did settle it with a big fight over crossing a water puddle a few weeks later but if he would and he doesn’t stop on the trail I would just hussle him with bumping of the spur. You can then steady the head with the reins and constantly bump him/her until she moves forward.
I believe confident trail horses start with confident riders and no nonesense approach. Spurs keep the hands free and give you something to force movement out of the horse. No amount of kicking will get a horse to move if it doesn’t want to go forward but hurrassing her with spurs, not jabbing hard, that could get her to go up but constant bumping will get movement.
Also great to teach side passing and backing.
Rio will be for at the end of the month:)
I also find new trails excite him and he moves off smartly and with enthusism?? Stopping on the trail is not allowed and again would get him a poke with the spurs. He does not stop until told to.

[Painted_Horse]

I don’t know what kind of trails you are riding. But your horse is still young. Is she possibly getting tired and showing it by just stopping? As she muscles up and finishes her development, she will be much stronger at keeping the pace through out the ride.

If she is challenging your leadership. Then you need to work on getting her to do as you ask.

[Draftlover]

Problem with stopping on trail

Shadow 14 I’m sorry but you are the epitome of every horse trainers nightmare!! Shame on you. I have, and have had the priveledge of training some wonderful horses with zero problems to carry on through life and who ultimately become a burden on their owners. SPURS!, WHIP wake up!! making a horse do something is NOT the way to a productive and responsive animal. It is however, the ultimate recipe to problems in later life.

A good horse trainer is soft at hand but firm in voice and blessed with tenacity. Riding and owning a horse that wants to please, instead of being forced to please are an ocean apart. I never want to be the recipient of a horse that has been handled by you.

Gentle persuation and encouraging reinforcement WORK!!

[Shadow14]

I have been around horses for 50 years and my horses are the best around so don’t tell me I have a problem. Once I am done with a horse anyone can ride them from 8 to 80.
I also said I don’t use whips so where do you come up with that. Almost everyone in the dessage rings wears spurs, in all western events people wear spurs, police on horseback wear spurs, etc etc so don’t complain to me about spurs. I ride in a light snaff with extremely soft hands but when the time comes to force an issue I force it. You don’t know me, how well I train so don’t judge me.
Most trainers I run into in the big barns don’t ride, they just tell others all about it. So again don’t judge me because I have an opinion that works , both for the horse and for me.

[rainechyldes]

Actually ( dies in shock) I’ll be siding with Shadow on this one…slightly.

I had an appy mare who was very balky on the trail. (gentle persuasion- voice and clucking - did nothing)

She simply didn’t want.to.do it. Period. When asked nicely repeatedly, she soon began spinning and turning for home. etc. The behaviour steadily worsened with ‘nice’.

Your horse is young, yes. But it is still important to make him understand he needs to move forward. Head back the the ring, make him work there, then go for a ride, carry a crop .
Now is the time to be insisting he continue to move forward. Before it becomes a HUGE issue.

And I’m not talking beat him to death, but yes you may have to use the crop more then you wish to keep him moving, don’t forget to reward in between is all, so that moving forward is a ‘good’ thing.

Also - I didn’t see it, - does your horse stop on the way home? If not - then you are dealing with a habit, yep.
If he does, then make your rides shorter, and insist he move out, then turn for home and reward him with a shorter ride of going forward.

[goeslikestink]

[QUOTE=Slaters_mom;3859021]
Hi everyone, I am having a bit of an issue with my young mare (3yo, coming 4). She started trail riding at the beginning of fall last year. I have taught many horses to trail ride, but this is a problem I haven’t seen before.

When I first began taking her out, she always always had an experienced leader (if not several) to show her how things are done. I did not push the issue of her leading, unless I felt as if she wanted to go first. As young horses will do, she would occasionally lose her “nerve” and see something that was scary on the trail. Instead of forcing her, I chose to allow a more experienced horse to pass us, therefore showing her how it is done.

Now it has been several months since she first began trail riding. She has decided that since I didn’t pick fights with her to force the issue before, this means that she can just STOP dead in the middle of the trail any time she is leading. She does spook sometimes, but mostly she will just come to a dead halt. No amount of pleading or cajoling will get her to move forward. :mad:

go back out on trials with her with another horse so dhe can gain confidence
when out put her in front behind and middle keep changing the places so that the horse learns and is encouraged to go forwards on her own
shes 4 and ababy so sometimes they lose ther confidence and it also how you ride her
knowing full well she might stop you are expecting it so that as a vibe transmits to thehorse as sub concously you are telling her to stop
when riding babies you have to be assertive and 100% confident then they get that clear vibe as ok mum i will, rather than on no shes goign to stop
this than transmits ------ in ahorses mind STOP SO DONT THINK it just get on and keep her going forwards if she loses confidence and cant past an object then the other horse should go forwards and encourage the baby one to do so also and thus teaches the horse from another horse is a nothing at the same time you on top should treat it as a nothing
and push her forwards ie leg on then when past it praze her by giving her a pat and a scratch this rewards her instinctly and she will then think cor i was a good girl and it didnt bother me so i will do that again

its how you riding her and how you think horses pick up on any vibe given so you must be confindent and set out with a clear determined confident mind

[chicamuxen1]

Oh, for heaven’s sake, carry a long dressage whip and just give her some good zings with it. Use an escalation of aids, when you feel her begin to slow, squeeze first, then slap firmly with your legs then give her a good zing with that whip while holding on to the reins with both hands. I don’t care for crops because you can’t start the engine (tap the hindquarters) while holding the reins in both hands. If you stick both reins into one hand then you horse can wheel or spin. You won’t have to resort to constantly wacking on your horse to go down the trail if you actually assert yourself once or twice. FROM THE SADDLE! Go ahead and use your voice when giving physical aids if you want and you will find the horse will learn to move on when they hear your voice as they know that it will be followed by a stronger aid if they don’t move on from the voice.

It’s OK to assert yourself with a horse. She’s doing it to you. It’s OK to be insistant. It’s not always about lack of confidence or fear on the horse’s part. It often is about the horse being the decision maker because the rider isn’t willing to “upset” the horse and risk a confrontation. Most horses would rather follow than lead, prefer to stay home instead of work. BE the leader, from the saddle.

I am not a mean bully, I don’t go around beating my horses. They are all bold and brave and love to lead. They will also follow. It’s because they have gone thru their learning period, got handled as babies seeing everything for the first few times and I insisted that they go ahead and do what I’ve told them to do. It’s not always easy, I have the occasional fall, but I believe in myself because I make myself go ahead and do the moderately scarey things. Expect the same of your horse.

Oh, spurs are a reasonable alternative to a whip if used appropriately.

Bonnie S.

[Shadow14]

I find that alone is better. If you are with another horse your horse is concentrating on her buddy. I much prefer alone in the woods where everything is just the connection between the 2 of us. I set pace, not the buddy, I stop and make him stand until he is calm and relaxed before moving out. I pick the terrain I want him to train on etc etc.
Alone you control what you are doing. With a buddy the buddies horse sets pace, not you, your buddies horse leads the way most of the time or runs up your heals.
No alone is where I prefer to be with a young horse and I would not shorten the ride just so you can avoid a confrontation???
It happens and you have got to win out and your horse once it has lost a few battles won’t pull that again.
If you know your horse is afraid of something make sure that something is included in every ride. After 2 or 3 times that scary something should be routine.
To the trainer the 3 biggest mouths in training in the barns I know don’t ride out. A hack to them is the end of the driveway if that.

[April_MD]

[QUOTE=goeslikestink;3859732]
keep her going forwards if she loses confidence and cant past an object then the other horse should go forwards and encourage the baby one to do so also and thus teaches the horse from another horse is a nothing at the same time you on top should treat it as a nothing
and push her forwards ie leg on then when past it praze her by giving her a pat and a scratch this rewards her instinctly and she will then think cor i was a good girl and it didnt bother me so i will do that again

its how you riding her and how you think horses pick up on any vibe given so you must be confindent and set out with a clear determined confident mind[/QUOTE]

I agree totally with this approach, as this is what I have done thus far with her (and the multitude of other horses I have introduced to trail riding) . However, it is this approach that has caused my current issue with her. Trust me, it is not an issue with me losing confidence and her picking up on my “vibe”. I have been doing this for 25 years. It takes more than a “stopper” to shake my confidence!

I have also begun using a more aggressive approach, since it is clear that she this is a form of disobedience. She DOES stop on the way home as well as the way out. We don’t ride hard, only an hour or two of a very moderate pace (mostly walk, some trot, and very little canter).
So, I carry a crop. If I sense her slowing her pace, I leg her on. If she continues to slow, I kick. If she stops I whack her on the shoulder with my crop. If she does not move on I get more and more aggressive with the crop (behind the leg, etc.)
The problem is that she has an exceptionally determined nature, and is willing to sit there and take the abuse for far longer than I would like. Sure she does continue on after a minute or so, but it doesn’t seem to be dissuading her from the next time she wants to stop.

So I am looking for some more creative ideas. Or for the experiences of someone who has dealt with this precise issue. I know she is going through a real “testing her boundaries” stage right now, since she is doing so in other areas as well. But I also know that she is a particularly intelligent mare who WILL try something to see if she can get away with it.
And as with all horses, they always seem to learn bad habits more easily than good ones.:lol:

Thank you all for your input!

[matryoshka]

I prefer a crop to a whip, just because I bang the whip on everything as we ride by, but I agree with Chickamuxen on this. It sounds like disobedience rather than fear. A whack or two isn’t abuse, as long as you don’t continue in anger once the horse complies.

You might end up just having it out with her.

I’m facing the same thing right now with a young Arab mare I’m bringing along. Well, we aren’t going out on the trail alone yet, but she does occasionally stop on the trail and want her riding buddy to go first. It was okay at first, but now I’m expecting her to keep going forward. Hence, the crop. I have no doubt a balk or two is in our future.

Potential creative solution: I have, on occassion, turned a horse around and backed him along the trail when he’s gotten very stubborn and doesn’t seem to mind the crop. It’s hard work for them to go backwards. So, failing all else, you could dismount and back your horse along the trail until he’s good and tired of going backward. Try to get them to trot backwards.

Sideways down the trail would work, too, and might be easier to accomplish. Anything to get her mind off the balk and into moving her feet except allowing her to make any steps back the way you came.

I’m not a fan of taking them back to the barn and working them, because they’ve won a battle by turning around and going home. I will dismount if necessary, but when I’m mounted back up, we are heading the way I originally intended.

[Lilykoi]

No, not really

[QUOTE=Draftlover;3859374]
Shadow 14 I’m sorry but you are the epitome of every horse trainers nightmare!! [/QUOTE]

I ride with a trainer who is in her 70’s (yes, she still rides). She always rides in spurs, always. As do most trainers I know. She told me once, you don’t go to battle unarmed. So true.
Just because you have them on doesn’t mean you are using them constantly.
They sure come in handy when you do need them. They don’t do you much good back in the tack trunk.
None of our horses are abused with a spur, nor do they fear them. Spurs are
simply an artificial aide to back up your natural aide, your leg.

[Shadow14]

[QUOTE=Lilykoi;3860069]
I ride with a trainer who is in her 70’s (yes, she still rides). She always rides in spurs, always. As do most trainers I know. She told me once, you don’t go to battle unarmed. So true.
Just because you have them on doesn’t mean you are using them constantly.
They sure come in handy when you do need them. They don’t do you much good back in the tack trunk.
None of our horses are abused with a spur, nor do they fear them. Spurs are
simply an artificial aide to back up your natural aide, your leg.[/QUOTE]

Well we agree on that. I wear them and only use them if necessary. I do ride in english dressage type spurs with a single plunt end but I have them when necessary.
Watch videos of nearly any discipline and everyone wears spurs. I recently watched a number of videio on the TWH and watching them rack at incredible speeds. Check out the rider and you usually see a good set of spurs bumping the horse.
Jabbing gets a horse to go up, bumping, worrying, irritating gets the horse to move forward.
Again I find crops, whips whatever too hard for me to handle. I want both hands on the reins guiding the horse, holding him steady while the spurs encourage forward motion.

[Shadow14]

[QUOTE=rainechyldes;3859603]
Actually ( dies in shock) I’ll be siding with Shadow on this one…slightly.

.[/QUOTE]

Your going straight to hell along with Vickey and myself. Well two pretty girls in hell can’t be all that bad for me?:lol::lol::lol:

[chicamuxen1]

there is a reason for the long whip over the crop. You want them to go forward the cue really should be further back than the shoulder. And banging and crashing that long whip on everything around you (other than another horse) is perfect desensitizing. My youngster is very reactive to sudden noises, like a squirrel running thru dead leaves. Almost all my riding is on forested trails where we have crazed kamakazee squirrels. Don’t avoid what scares them! So I rattle the branches around me constantly with that whip. I’ve used one for years after doing a period of dressage stuff. They are just a tool. Keeps the horse from becoming dull to leg aids. Seldom needed, but a good back up.

I’m very short legged so spurs can be a problem for me depending on the barrel of the horse I’m on. On some it’s just way to easy for me to be constantly rubbing my spurs against their ribs. And I don’t believe in riding with your toes pointing straight forward. Good way to stress your knees, mine are already pretty shot.

Bonnie S.

[matryoshka]

Yep, not disagreeing with the advantages of a whip over a crop. But, I ride with a crop not a whip. I find whips cumbersome and the weight is hard on my arthritic knuckles aside from banging on trees as we go by. It’s a personal choice. I have no trouble taking one hand off the reins to use the crop on the horse’s butt.

The whip has the advantage of being more useful if you have to dismount. If I think the horse needs serious schooling through obstacles on the trail, I’ll bring a whip instead of a crop so I can use it if I have to dismount. A visible whip, not a black one–I’m less likely to need to touch them with it if they can see it. If I think I can handle the horse while mounted, I use a crop. I rarely have to use it, but it is funny that my horses rapidly figure out when I’ve forgotten to bring one.

When I first started the young mare on the trail, I brought a whip. Now I bring a crop. When we start going out alone, I’ll probably switch back to a whip because we’ll spend part of the time hand walking.

I don’t like spurs because I have a temper. The temptation is there to kick the horse hard when I’m angry, which would be awful with spurs. I can only boot them so hard with my heels in a moment of anger. Using a crop or whip takes more thought than using spurs, so it’s a measure of protection for the horse that I have to take my hand off the reins in order to use a crop or whip effectively. That means some brain cells get involved and I’m less likely to act out in anger, giving me a split second to cool my jets. It’s better for my horse that way.

You’ve got to make your choices knowing yourself and how you react under pressure, fear, anger, and frustration. I know myself pretty well, so I choose a crop over spurs. For those of you with better control of your temper and a good enough seat not to apply them accidentally, then spurs are a good tool. They are not for me.

I’m just sharing my experience, and I’m not saying those who use spurs do so abusively. There are many ways to accomplish any goal with horses. The beauty is that we can make choices that work for us and our horse. Somebody else’s solution may be great for them, but not so great for me.

[Jaegermonster]

My young mare did this too when I first started trail riding her alone. She wasn’t scared just being hardheaded.
If they’re scared it’s a whole different ball game, then you have to show them that it’s ok and they can trust you. If they are scared and you start with the crop that only teaches them they were right to be scared.
With my mare, once she started this I didn’t take her out unless I had a lot (like several hours) of time to deal with it. When she would do the stop thing, we just stood there. And stood there. And stood there. Forward is always ok, but not turning around and not back.
Once time we stood there for about 2 hours. In the same spot. She finally took about 4 steps forward, I petted her and gave her a carrot, turned around and headed home.
After that we only had about one or two more stop incidents and that was it.

[matryoshka]

Good point.

I agree that it is important to determine if the horse is balking in fear or from stubborness. With my young mare, it is pretty obvious when she’s scared, because she vibrates. I wouldn’t touch her with the crop under those circumstances. Still use my leg, though, to counter where she is trying to move to avoid the scary object. Being firm can reassure a nervous horse. Pushing too hard at the wrong moment can exascerbate the problem.

[Icecapade]

meep meep trainwreck!!!

sigh…

Um I think that most people agree agree a balking horse from attitude rather than fear needs to move smartly off the leg. A nagging leg will create a desensitized horse… in the bad way.

I personally feel that people should not be riding 3-4 year olds out and about as much as they do. Seeing as how many are arabs on this board they are TOO YOUNG TO BE DOING THAT KIND OF WORK.

You can argue with me all day… and usually you can change my mind with a decent arguement, but I stand firm on what I believe: arabs should have light work only up till they are 5 pushing 7… till their knees are fully closed.
that doesn’t mean NO work… but I think pushing a 4 year old around on trails is going to cause problems

that being said… seeing as she is young… I would go back to follow the leader… if she is slightly barn sour let her take the lead home… use that to your advantage. Try to do a column of two instead of a single column. Keep her head abreast to the other lead horse. She is young, forcing the issue I think at that age is usually a good sign they are too young, let themn figure it out with out the fight.

But if you ask forward… ask. tell. demand. thats the process. don’t nag.