problem with tank heater shocking

[egontoast]

GFI or not, the point is that all a GFI will do is kill the circuit once it has been grounded

Yes , true, but still a very good idea when dealing with electricity, water and extension cords. They are expensive but important for safety and fire prevention.

I’ve had this problem more than once. I do not ground my tanks, nor are my heaters in GFI outlets. EVERY single time I’ve found current in the water it’s one of two things. Water in or on one of the plugs (blow it out with canned air), OR it’s a problem with the electrical cord. Just been my experience. And I run 3 troughs every winter so I get to have all the fun of crossing fingers every year, 3 times

A GFI outlet should help in these circumstances as the circuit will be tripped when these things happen. If there is a problem with the electrical cord, you want it to trip. I had one catch on fire before the GFI was installed. Fortunately I was nearby when it happened or it could have been a disaster.

Also for safety, if you are using electrical cords (which are not the best idea but sometimes necessary) make sure you use a heavy enough gauge for the heater.

[jaimebaker]

[QUOTE=egontoast;4540618]

Also for safety, if you are using electrical cords (which are not the best idea but sometimes necessary) make sure you use a heavy enough gauge for the heater.[/QUOTE]

Yes, that and they must be for outdoor use.

[skyy]

jaimebaker-thanks for that info. As we didn’t have the problem last year, I am a little confused why we have it this year. I mistakenly thought you could buy a GFI adapter to plug into a regular outlet (I was told by the Ace Hardware guy that no such thing exists and if it did it would be highly dangerous). As I bought new heaters this year I think that I must have dampness in the non GFI outlet so I will try to dry that out. I also bought a new heavy duty outdoor extension cord for that heater. I know that extension cords are not suggested but that’s the way it has to be. I will report back.

Thank you all for your words of wisdom.

[egontoast]

You will need an electrician if you want to install the gfi outlets.

You could try switching the ext cords for the two stocktanks to find out if the problem is related to the cord itself or something else.

[skyy]

Once I put the new cord in place (or switch them around as a test) how can I tell if it is still leaking current and shocking the horses without using them (or myself!) as guinea pigs?

[Romany]

According to the heater instructions, you need to ground every trough by running a wire from the water over the top and on to a grounding rod.

We had this problem this autumn - some horses care more than others.

Our friendly neighbourhood electrician came and puzzled it out. We ended up driving a second grounding rod (aka step-in electric fence post ) deep into the ground, and attaching the grounding wires to that.

You do also need to use heavy-duty outdoor 3-prong extension cables (the heater instructions say not to use extension cables, ffs), and plug in to a GF©I.

We never did figure out why we were getting this problem now, and never before. Wet ground? Wet shod hooves (as opposed to dry and barefoot?)? Who knows.

The electrician also mentioned that it’s also fairly common for older/remoter farms to have too much electricity coming in, which “leaks,” thus everything on the farm can potentially be slightly “charged” - which is heightened for a horse with steel shoes on, drinking water from a trough that’s hooked up to electricity. If that’s the case, call the Hydro Board and b!tch at them until they come and fix it.

It’s apparently also a HUGE issue in dairies, and often it turns out that excess power is the root of the problem.

[Romany]

[QUOTE=skyy;4541043]
Once I put the new cord in place (or switch them around as a test) how can I tell if it is still leaking current and shocking the horses without using them (or myself!) as guinea pigs?[/QUOTE]

Get yourself an electric fence tester from your local farm supply store. Our water troughs tested at 0.2 v (I think it was v!), which I could NOT feel, but clearly the horses could. :eek:

[LauraKY]

[QUOTE=fivehorses;4539858]
When I speak of ground fault interupptor(GFI), it is specifically meant to kill the electricity when something goes awry. Not exactly sure what GFCI stands for.

The third prong on a plug…not sure what that is for, but you really want a GFI plug. An electrician can install it fairly easily.

I do not know anyone who has a ground on their heaters. I do know they are plugged into GFI outlets via extension cords.

Lauraky, from your description, it sounds like the copper wire goes into the water, is that correct?
What happens when the horses drink below that level?[/QUOTE]

Don’t know, haven’t grounded mine. But, when I did read the instructions for my plug-in heater they said to use the copper ground. I have never had a problem. Use an outdoor, construction grade extension cord; have the connection between the heater and cord elevated and it’s all plugged into a GFCI outlet. Also unplug if there’s a thunderstorm, which NEVER happens in the winter, but is supposed to tonight. The weather is Kentucky has been really weird this year!

I also have board fencing, not electric, so I don’t know if that’s making a difference.

[hosspuller]

Mis-information

Folks … Be careful. There are some mis-informed posts on this thread. This is a dangerous condition. You or a horse can be killed by electricity. There is no circumstance that should allow electricity leakage. “Excess” electricity is NOT a problem. The old electrical system is THE problem. There should be NO leakage to ground. Ground wires in the water are just a band-aid and NOT recommended. Fix the system ground. A ground should be ground not a “maybe” ground. The current standard calls for two ground rods driven at the service entrance. Old farms and houses may have only a water pipe loosely attached somewhere. Critical safety systems deserve solid, tight, connections.

ORIGINAL POSTER: The heater that is shocking is faulty. Prove it to yourself by switching it with the heater that isn’t shocking. The GFCI will likely trip. It is working AND shocking in its current location because there isn’t a GFCI

A GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter) will protect only from current going to ground. A GFCI is specificly allowed in non-grounded systems by the National Electric Code. See here: http://www.icgov.org/site/CMSv2/File/housing/genInfo/wiringAlts.pdf

A portable GFCI can be connected between an outlet and extension. They are available! see here http://www.budgetlighting.com/store/agora.cgi?page=tower_in-line_gfci_catalog.html

[Tiki]

I have to use an extension cord because of the distance and the situation. I tie the 2 cord ends to connect in a very loose knot to take the strain off the connection and wrapt the connection liberally and tightly in black electrical tape to keep out any and all moisture. I’m talking about dew, not just rain, ice, snow or sleet, and keep the connection off the ground. I have a grounded gfci circuit and a covered, outdoor grade receptacle and have never had a horse shocked.

[Romany]

[QUOTE=hosspuller;4544351]
Folks … Be careful. There are some mis-informed posts on this thread. This is a dangerous condition. You or a horse can be killed by electricity. There is no circumstance that should allow electricity leakage. “Excess” electricity is NOT a problem. The old electrical system is THE problem. There should be NO leakage to ground. Ground wires in the water are just a band-aid and NOT recommended. Fix the system ground. A ground should be ground not a “maybe” ground. The current standard calls for two ground rods driven at the service entrance. Old farms and houses may have only a water pipe loosely attached somewhere. Critical safety systems deserve solid, tight, connections.

ORIGINAL POSTER: The heater that is shocking is faulty. Prove it to yourself by switching it with the heater that isn’t shocking. The GFCI will likely trip. It is working AND shocking in its current location because there isn’t a GFCI

A GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter) will protect only from current going to ground. A GFCI is specificly allowed in non-grounded systems by the National Electric Code. See here: http://www.icgov.org/site/CMSv2/File/housing/genInfo/wiringAlts.pdf

A portable GFCI can be connected between an outlet and extension. They are available! see here http://www.budgetlighting.com/store/agora.cgi?page=tower_in-line_gfci_catalog.html[/QUOTE]

A couple of points, hosspuller…

The instructions that come with the heaters are very clear - the trough itself should be grounded from the water out to a grounding rod.

And there is indeed leaking or excess power on some farms. I’m not an expert, just quoting the electrician. The Hydro Board have tested it coming in at 222 or 223 or more, not just 220. Could be different in your area, though, I guess.

[skyy]

Thanks again for all of the info. The service to the barn is relatively new as we had to upgrade when we put up the indoor 5 years ago. Although I have not seen for myself, I would hope that the electrician properly grounded the new panel. The electrician is coming on Thurs to look at our outdoor lights so I will see if they can put in a GFI outlet at the intended spot.

I tried testing with the fence tester and got no reading at all, either with the fence on or off. I stuck my hand in the trough and felt nothing. Since I got no response, I didn’t trust that spraying air into the outlet and using the new heavy duty extension cord was enough to solve the problem (since I didn’t have a way to prove or disprove). I have strung the extension cord to a different outlet (which is much less convenient and requires a 100’ cord).

When I plugged the “problem” heater into the GFI it did not trip so I don’t think the heater is the problem (and they are both brand new).

[hosspuller]

@Romany;4544977

A couple of points, hosspuller…

The instructions that come with the heaters are very clear - the trough itself should be grounded from the water out to a grounding rod.

And there is indeed leaking or excess power on some farms. I’m not an expert, just quoting the electrician. The Hydro Board have tested it coming in at 222 or 223 or more, not just 220. Could be different in your area, though, I guess.

I can’t speak to the heater instructions… They can say anything they wish.

As for the Hydro Board measurment… (utility power to us in the states) 223 volts is insignificant when the nominal voltage is 220 volts. The utilities are allowed a 5% window. so the max voltage could be 231 volts. 223 as supplied is very good, not excessive. See here for the 5% figure http://apps.leg.wa.gov/WAC/default.aspx?cite=480-100-373

The maximum design voltage for home appliances is generally 600 volts. This is NOT the supply voltage, just the max voltage the insulation is designed for. Hence, if the supplied voltage is 223, a properly operating electrical system should contain the voltage without leakage. That’s why I say the/your farm system is at fault.

A little bit of technical background. All utility power in North America relies on a proper ground to transmit power to your home, office, factory, etc. If the grounding at your home, farm is not perfect, the power will look for any other path. This alternate path will be the source for all the problems noted in this thread.

[skyy]

Hosspullr-
How do you test for inadequate grounding? Since the electrician is coming on Thurs (btw not the one who installed the new service) can they determine if the grounding is not adequate without looking for the ground rods? (I am fairly certain that the grounding rod(s) is now underneath a floor- don’t ask how that happened you won’t want to know).

[hosspuller]

@skyy;4545228

Hosspullr-
How do you test for inadequate grounding? Since the electrician is coming on Thurs (btw not the one who installed the new service) can they determine if the grounding is not adequate without looking for the ground rods? (I am fairly certain that the grounding rod(s) is now underneath a floor- don’t ask how that happened you won’t want to know).

There are some instruments that are used, but it may just be easier to JUST drive new rods and connect to them. As important as the rods are, the rest of the connections are important too. It is like a chain. The weakest link determines the effectiveness of the whole system. The electrician may take voltage readings between the ground and hot leg (phase) at various spots. If she/he finds a variation, then further checking is needed.

[cssutton]

[QUOTE=hosspuller;4545187]
I can’t speak to the heater instructions… They can say anything they wish.

As for the Hydro Board measurment… (utility power to us in the states) 223 volts is insignificant when the nominal voltage is 220 volts. The utilities are allowed a 5% window. so the max voltage could be 231 volts. 223 as supplied is very good, not excessive. See here for the 5% figure http://apps.leg.wa.gov/WAC/default.aspx?cite=480-100-373

The maximum design voltage for home appliances is generally 600 volts. This is NOT the supply voltage, just the max voltage the insulation is designed for. Hence, if the supplied voltage is 223, a properly operating electrical system should contain the voltage without leakage. That’s why I say the/your farm system is at fault.

A little bit of technical background. All utility power in North America relies on a proper ground to transmit power to your home, office, factory, etc. If the grounding at your home, farm is not perfect, the power will look for any other path. This alternate path will be the source for all the problems noted in this thread.[/QUOTE]

I would suspect that the ground in the water trough requirement was put in by their lawyer.

When a company is sued in a product liability case, an aggressive lawyer (the plaintiff’s) will invariably pursue the line of questioning as to whether the manufacturer made every possible effort to protect and to inform the purchaser.

Anyway, it is a good idea in case everything else fails.

If I wanted to ground the water, I would put a piece of the same copper rod that I drove in the ground in the tank, full tank length. Attach the ground wire to it with a clamp and lay it on the bottom of the tank.

That way, no matter what the water level, the ground rod is covered.

One more thing. If your horse gets electrocuted and you try to collect the value of the horse from the heater manufacturer, I promise you that the first question that will be asked is whether you have a ground fault and whether the water in the tank has a ground in it. Then each of you will have an “expert” witness, one to testify that the ground in the water is absolutely essential and the other to testify that it is totally unnecessary, a fool’s idea.

So a clear cut case could become a nightmare and no telling how it would go from there.

So why quibble over two rods that will cost less than $20 each and a piece of wire with two clamps. It is not worth it.

CSSJR

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in a manner we consider to be eccentric.

[ptownevt]

Whatever the electrical situation, I had this problem a couple of years ago. I think it was the heater itself. Anyway, even when we fixed the problem, my gelding wouldn’t drink from that tub and I had to switch out the tub, too. His motto is you just can’t be too careful.

[skyy]

I really hate this time of the year. We have had a horse or 2 in the past who would see the heater in the bottom of the trough and refuse to drink. We knew it wasn’t shocking him as he would snort and freak out even before making contact with the water or the trough and the rest of his herdmates drank fine from it. Argh!!!

[jaimebaker]

[QUOTE=skyy;4545162]

When I plugged the “problem” heater into the GFI it did not trip so I don’t think the heater is the problem (and they are both brand new).[/QUOTE]

Can you not plug the heater into another trough using a different plug and extension cord to test it?? Seriously, every time I’ve had one zapping water, it’s been a problem with the extension cord (water in it, faulty, etc). You don’t have to have canned air, it’s just convenient. Take the cord, and tap it on your leg, blow into it, etc and see if you see any water droplets come out. Even the tiniest amount of moisture on either cord can cause the problem.

For the poster that said the voltage meter found it but they couldn’t feel it, I’d like to add, you typically won’t feel the electrical charge unless you have a cut on your finger. I generally have some sort of booboo on my hand so it’s easy for me to test. I can stick my hand in and not feel a thing until I reach a cut or scratch. Then it stings or zaps. Anytime I hook my heaters up I like to watch the horses come up and drink. In case there may be something I can’t feel but they can.

[walkinthewalk]

[QUOTE=skyy;4539760]
Sorry for the questions but electricity is one of those areas where I am seriously lacking. I thought the 3rd prong on a plug was the ground. Also, I am fairly certain that there is a ground rod attached to the electrical panel in the barn. Is this still not enough?[/QUOTE]

That is the ground rod for the barn, not the water tanks.

Ditto calling a qualified electrician.

That being said:

Our outside tanks are plugged into outdoor plugs (they have covers on them and are not GFI).

The tanks are grounded with a heavy gauge copper wire that lays on the floor of the tank and does not touch the heater coils. The wire on each tank is then run up the back wall of the rubbermaid tank and attach to a copperized (can’t think of the real word) legitimate Grounding Bars that can be bought at TSC, Lowes, Home Depot, etc.

Those bars are 8’ long and Mr. WTW drove them clearn into the ground, then attached the copper wire to them.

I guess I should be thankful that he is anal enough with his race car that he has a $300 tester he can use on the water in the stock tanks to check for any electrical leakage.

Orrrr if he’s had enough beers, he will just stick his tongue in the water:lol: