Problems with Hunters and Equitation

[GatesRiverFarm]

@atl_hunter

Our Maclay winner this weekend at a sold out A rated show (was sold out even before the COVID 19 USEF announcement) won on her 18 YO TB that she pulled out of retirement as she’s selling her usual WB mount.

He didn’t have the look nor was he slow legged, but the judge wasn’t judging the horse since it’s the Maclay. The young rider rode the horse she had that day and put in a stellar trip. I wish people would stop getting on the forums and saying it’s not doable or the judge won’t use you. Ride well enough and the judge really won’t care what breed your horse is. You can enter the ring with the NICEST horse at the show and if you can’t nail your distances, establish a rhythm, and leave all the sticks up while staying on course I promise you that the TB that made it around a little quicker will still come out ahead. Getting 8 perfect jumps isn’t as easy as it seems.

As for “isn’t broken down enough,” that’s hugely speculative of you to say. Perhaps some people simply choose quiet horses because that is there preference? A horse got loose while my horse and I were on course this weekend - my horse did change his rhythm a bit and raised his head but that was about it. Most horses would have freaked out. I guess you’d think my horse is drugged or broken down for his failure to react, but you’d be wrong. He’s imported. He failed out of the jump program in his home country because he was too quiet. So quiet he doesn’t need ear plugs or longing or perfect prep or whatever. Lots of horses are like that - that is why they come to the US. They are too quiet to be jumpers. I know that is hard for some people to accept but I guess it’s easier to make blanket accusations about people, like me, who happen to like a more quiet horse. After growing up with TBs, Apploosas, and my most recent being a lovely TBx, I rather enjoy riding my more rhythmic, steady WB. Next time maybe I’ll pivot again and try something else like a Fresian for dressage or something. I’ve always found it better to not judge but rather to try to understand and give the unknown a chance. It’s worked out pretty well for me - my new horse is really lovely.

As I’m sure you can tell from my previous post, I’m quite passionate about this issue, so I’d like to reply again.

That is great to hear that the Maclay winner was pinned on a TB. I’ll also personally agree with your assertion that “some people happen to like a quiet horse” - that’s me, too! Also, I’ll emphasize again though that while it surely is POSSIBLE to win on a TB or “different” horse, the point is, this seems to be the far-and-few-between exception to a majority of the rest of what we see in the hunter ring these days.

Also, the point of my post was to say that while yes, it is certainly POSSIBLE to win on a TB if you’re a good enough rider and put in a “stellar” trip, the point is, a lot of what we are seeing in the hunter ring is LESS than “good” RIDERS consistently winning on the expensive European imports, just because thats what they are. They have “the look”, whether they’re being ridden well or not. To simplify that even more:

RIDER A:

• Excellent rider, can only afford 1 lesson per week, schools alone for other 5 days per week
• Plain bay 12 y/o OTTB ($5,000)
• Shows 2x/year (because thats all they can afford)
• Grooms, tacks, braids, lunges, & does everything themself

RIDER B:

• Mediocre rider, rides in 2 lessons per week and buys 4 training rides per week
• Dapple gray 10 y/o push-button Imported Warmblood ($120k)
• Shows the entire “rated circuit” all year (what budget? They don’t have one.)
• Pays grooms to tack & lunge
• Pays braider
• Pays trainer to ride the horse all week in “warmup” classes

Both riders show up to the XYZ Classic “A” horse show. For rider A, this is one of 2 opportunities this year they will have in the show ring, because thats all they can afford. For rider B, they’ve been showing consistently all year because they can afford to do.

Both riders enter the 3’ Adult Amateur division.

Rider A comes into the arena dressed in an Ovation helmet, hand-me-down navy blue hunt coat, unbranded black boots, a basic bridle, and older model Crosby saddle. They put in 2 very nice, smooth rounds. Nice distances and correct number of strides down the lines, but rider has to really ride well and “fight” for them. Horse has a slightly choppier, quicker looking canter and higher head carriage. Rider gets off, goes back to the barn and takes care of the horse.

Rider B comes into the arena dressed in a Samshield helmet, the latest hunter green Charles Ancona hunt coat, Fabbri black boots, a brand new show bridle, and the latest Hermes saddle. They put in 2 very nice, smooth rounds. Nice distances and correct number of strides down the lines. Horse does all the work and rider basically just sits there and looks “pretty”. Horse has a very smooth, slow-legged canter, flatter knees, and goes around perfectly on-the-bit the entire round. Rider gets off, hands horse off to the groom, and goes to sit in the VIP tent for lunch and to watch the grand prix with the rest of their stable-mates.

Rider A gets a 2nd and 4th place in jumping and 6th in the hack. Wins $40 in prize money.
Rider B gets a 1st and 2nd place in jumping and wins the hack. Wins $150 in prize money.

Now I’ll ask you…if we’re being honest, at your TYPICAL run-of-the-mill USEF A-rated show:

1.) Which horse is more likely to win?
2.) Which person is likely the better rider?
3.) Which rider is likely the better horsewoman?

You may say that it’s not “fair” to make “blanket accusations” (which this isn’t, its just an observation of what is the current greater majority at the A-shows), it also isn’t “fair” however, to the rider who works harder, trains harder, and is for all intensive purposes the better horsewoman to never quite pass muster in the show ring, because they will never have enough money, or the right “type” of horse to hang.

And again, while I understand that - regardless of the sport at hand - while there will always be someone with more money, a nicer this or a nicer that, our sport is unique in that money speaks a lot louder than in other arenas. Whether or not you have a $500 tennis racquet or a $100 tennis racquet, you still need TALENT to win. Whether you are swinging with a $100 baseball bat or a a $25 baseball bat, you have to have TALENT to hit it out of the park.

With horses however, it’s arguably MUCH different, and a lot of what we have today are again, the mediocre riders with the $100,000 horses who are constantly squeezing out the better riders with the $5,000 horses, and USEF and judges don’t seem to have all that much concern about it as the shows continue to become more and more expensive and exclusive.

Again…just my 2 cents. (okay, in this case a dollar, bc that was a long post! LOL)

[NoSuchPerson]

@GatesRiverFarm

Rider A …They put in 2 very nice, smooth rounds. Nice distances and correct number of strides down the lines, but rider has to really ride well and “fight” for them. Horse has a slightly choppier, quicker looking canter and higher head carriage.

Rider B …They put in 2 very nice, smooth rounds. Nice distances and correct number of strides down the lines. … Horse has a very smooth, slow-legged canter, flatter knees, and goes around perfectly on-the-bit the entire round.

Rider B deserves to win. She and her horse put in the best round. They most closely matched the expectations of a winning round in the 3’ Adult Amateur division. And at a horse show, that’s all that matters. None of the other stuff has any relevance. It matters not one bit how the riders got to the ring or where the horse came from.

@GatesRiverFarm

And again, while I understand that - regardless of the sport at hand - while there will always be someone with more money, a nicer this or a nicer that, our sport is unique in that money speaks a lot louder than in other arenas. Whether or not you have a $500 tennis racquet or a $100 tennis racquet, you still need TALENT to win. Whether you are swinging with a $100 baseball bat or a a $25 baseball bat, you have to have TALENT to hit it out of the park.

With horses however, it’s arguably MUCH different, and a lot of what we have today are again, the mediocre riders with the $100,000 horses who are constantly squeezing out the better riders with the $5,000 horses, and USEF and judges don’t seem to have all that much concern about it as the shows continue to become more and more expensive and exclusive.

Two points of disagreement.

Your baseball and tennis analogies are inaccurate. In reality, they’re essentially the same as showing horses. At the lower level - T-ball and baseball in the YMCA league, for example, the main distinguishing factor may well be talent. But, as you rise up the ranks, money becomes increasingly important. The kids who make it to the top, winning college scholarships and a shot at the majors, are, these days, dominated by kids who not only have talent but also have the family financial resources to play on a travel team and spend hours practicing and working with special coaches. The lower income kid who may have been MVP in middle school but has to get an after school job in high school and doesn’t have the resources to play travel baseball is not going to be competitive.

I don’t see the “talented but poor rider” getting beat by the “mediocre but wealthy rider” as a problem. It’s more a fact of life. So what if shows at the upper levels become more and more expensive and exclusive? Why does it matter? There are lots of things that wealthy people do that are expensive and exclusive. It makes perfect financial sense to have horse shows that are also expensive and exclusive - and profitable.

[Lucassb]

@GatesRiverFarm

As I’m sure you can tell from my previous post, I’m quite passionate about this issue, so I’d like to reply again.

That is great to hear that the Maclay winner was pinned on a TB. I’ll also personally agree with your assertion that “some people happen to like a quiet horse” - that’s me, too! Also, I’ll emphasize again though that while it surely is POSSIBLE to win on a TB or “different” horse, the point is, this seems to be the far-and-few-between exception to a majority of the rest of what we see in the hunter ring these days.

Also, the point of my post was to say that while yes, it is certainly POSSIBLE to win on a TB if you’re a good enough rider and put in a “stellar” trip, the point is, a lot of what we are seeing in the hunter ring is LESS than “good” RIDERS consistently winning on the expensive European imports, just because thats what they are. They have “the look”, whether they’re being ridden well or not. To simplify that even more:

RIDER A:

• Excellent rider, can only afford 1 lesson per week, schools alone for other 5 days per week
• Plain bay 12 y/o OTTB ($5,000)
• Shows 2x/year (because thats all they can afford)
• Grooms, tacks, braids, lunges, & does everything themself

RIDER B:

• Mediocre rider, rides in 2 lessons per week and buys 4 training rides per week
• Dapple gray 10 y/o push-button Imported Warmblood ($120k)
• Shows the entire “rated circuit” all year (what budget? They don’t have one.)
• Pays grooms to tack & lunge
• Pays braider
• Pays trainer to ride the horse all week in “warmup” classes

Both riders show up to the XYZ Classic “A” horse show. For rider A, this is one of 2 opportunities this year they will have in the show ring, because thats all they can afford. For rider B, they’ve been showing consistently all year because they can afford to do.

Both riders enter the 3’ Adult Amateur division.

Rider A comes into the arena dressed in an Ovation helmet, hand-me-down navy blue hunt coat, unbranded black boots, a basic bridle, and older model Crosby saddle. They put in 2 very nice, smooth rounds. Nice distances and correct number of strides down the lines, but rider has to really ride well and “fight” for them. Horse has a slightly choppier, quicker looking canter and higher head carriage. Rider gets off, goes back to the barn and takes care of the horse.

Rider B comes into the arena dressed in a Samshield helmet, the latest hunter green Charles Ancona hunt coat, Fabbri black boots, a brand new show bridle, and the latest Hermes saddle. They put in 2 very nice, smooth rounds. Nice distances and correct number of strides down the lines. Horse does all the work and rider basically just sits there and looks “pretty”. Horse has a very smooth, slow-legged canter, flatter knees, and goes around perfectly on-the-bit the entire round. Rider gets off, hands horse off to the groom, and goes to sit in the VIP tent for lunch and to watch the grand prix with the rest of their stable-mates.

Rider A gets a 2nd and 4th place in jumping and 6th in the hack. Wins $40 in prize money.
Rider B gets a 1st and 2nd place in jumping and wins the hack. Wins $150 in prize money.

Now I’ll ask you…if we’re being honest, at your TYPICAL run-of-the-mill USEF A-rated show:

1.) Which horse is more likely to win?
2.) Which person is likely the better rider?
3.) Which rider is likely the better horsewoman?

You may say that it’s not “fair” to make “blanket accusations” (which this isn’t, its just an observation of what is the current greater majority at the A-shows), it also isn’t “fair” however, to the rider who works harder, trains harder, and is for all intensive purposes the better horsewoman to never quite pass muster in the show ring, because they will never have enough money, or the right “type” of horse to hang.

And again, while I understand that - regardless of the sport at hand - while there will always be someone with more money, a nicer this or a nicer that, our sport is unique in that money speaks a lot louder than in other arenas. Whether or not you have a $500 tennis racquet or a $100 tennis racquet, you still need TALENT to win. Whether you are swinging with a $100 baseball bat or a a $25 baseball bat, you have to have TALENT to hit it out of the park.

With horses however, it’s arguably MUCH different, and a lot of what we have today are again, the mediocre riders with the $100,000 horses who are constantly squeezing out the better riders with the $5,000 horses, and USEF and judges don’t seem to have all that much concern about it as the shows continue to become more and more expensive and exclusive.

Again…just my 2 cents. (okay, in this case a dollar, bc that was a long post! LOL)

You are conflating a number of things.

The hunter division is a beauty contest. Has always been, and always will be. The nicest horse wins. That said, a really good, slick rider can make a not-so-perfect horse look a lot better than it really is - finding every distance with precision, regulating the balance and the canter and the horse’s attention every inch of the way around - all while looking like they are just up there enjoying the ride. They will beat, every time, the rider that “has to fight for it,” because what is being judged is the horse’s style and way of going… and part of that is being the horse that looks the most pleasant to ride. The beautiful horse that can go around on autopilot and make that happen SHOULD be the winner.

If you want a riding contest, go to the equitation ring. There, beauty, jumping style etc are all nice to haves, not need to haves. The smooth, “invisible” (looking) ride is still going to beat the less polished performance, and again rightfully so - because there is an art to making a round look smooth and effortless. But in that ring, a good rider laying down an accurate trip is going to be rewarded, and it’s all about effectiveness.

[Momateur]

Eh, I’m not about blaming kids that come from money. Not their fault. I blame the adults – the parents and trainers who prioritize show ring success over actual horsemanship. You know what that creates? A sh*t ton of kids who quit riding when they go to college, never to return to horses again. Because they never really knew and loved horses…they just knew and loved showing (which most young adults can’t afford on their own).

It boggles my mind that the standard “program” for juniors only includes riding lessons. These knowledgeable trainers should be spending time on the ground with their students imparting their knowledge. Can the kids wrap, lunge, poultice, worm, clip, medicate, deal with behavior problems, etc? A lot of times they cannot. Is it the trainers’ fault? Maybe a little. But what I see most is parents who just don’t get it. They don’t want to spend $$ on horsemanship instruction. They don’t come from the horse world, so they don’t understand the importance of it.

[NoSuchPerson]

@Momateur

Eh, I’m not about blaming kids that come from money. Not their fault. I blame the adults – the parents and trainers who prioritize show ring success over actual horsemanship. You know what that creates? A sh*t ton of kids who quit riding when they go to college, never to return to horses again. Because they never really knew and loved horses…they just knew and loved showing (which most young adults can’t afford on their own).

It boggles my mind that the standard “program” for juniors only includes riding lessons. These knowledgeable trainers should be spending time on the ground with their students imparting their knowledge. Can the kids wrap, lunge, poultice, worm, clip, medicate, deal with behavior problems, etc? A lot of times they cannot. Is it the trainers’ fault? Maybe a little. But what I see most is parents who just don’t get it. They don’t want to spend $$ on horsemanship instruction. They don’t come from the horse world, so they don’t understand the importance of it.

Again, so what? It’s no different from any other activity. How many kids quit playing an instrument after high school? Quit going to dance lessons and recitals as soon as their parents stop facilitating their participation?

How many kids that play in the band at school love music so much that they study the history of music, take music appreciation classes, and read biographies of the great composers in their spare time?

Those few who truly love horses will dig in and develop those skills. My parents “just didn’t get it.” They were completely non-horsey. They provided financial support and patted me on the head and said “have fun, dear.” I was responsible for becoming a horseman, for taking advantage of learning opportunities, for sticking around after the riding was done. I read the books, I went to the 4-H meetings and actually listened to the guest speakers, while many of the kids just viewed the meetings as a social event - a chance to meet up with friends and have snacks.

You can’t blame parents or trainers. Only a very small percentage of kids who start out taking riding lessons will have the desire and the persistence to become true horseman and that has always been the case.

If you want to blame anything, blame urbanization. The real obstacle the horse-crazy kid faces in becoming a true horseman is lack of access to places where they can learn and the primary reason for that is urbanization. Those little farms and lesson programs where kids could hang out and learn to be horsemen are gone, replaced by subdivisions and parking lots.

[GatesRiverFarm]

I definitely agree that there are always going to be upper and lower “ranks” of every sport and activity out there - there’s no doubt about that. Again though, the question posed initially by the OP was around what the PROBLEMS are with hunters & eq. To that end, I think one of the problems is in fact that the primary governing body for the h/j “world” - USEF - seems to be further promoting the “mediocre but wealthy” riders, as they price everyone else out of the rated show ring. You ask why this matters? It matters because at the uppermost echelons of our sport, we will continue to have increasing numbers of riders who have more money than talent or horsemanship, which is not what is best for the sport OR the animals.

If you are riding at the Maclay level, you better damn well know how to wrap your horse’s legs and how to tack up! (and no, this is not being faceious - my farrier has shared this first-hand knowledge with me that he’s seen with his own eyes while shoeing at the top shows across the country). Sadly, you see these kids riding today who are being packed around 3’+ on their “daddy’s money” warmblood and riding at the Maclay level, and they don’t even know how to tack or wrap polos - LITERALLY. THAT…is shameful. Not blaming the kid at all, but when the parent is waving a blank checkbook at the trainer and saying “Jenny Sue told us she wants to make to medal finals…MAKE. IT. HAPPEN.”, do you really think the trainer is going to be focused on teaching Jenny Sue a damn thing about horsemanship? Nope! They’re going to be focused on training rides and jumping lessons and showing showing showing. PERIOD. Before long, Jenny Sue and all of “daddy’s money” has risen to the uppermost echelons of the sport, winning ribbon after ribbon at USEF-sanctioned competition, again with limited talent or true well-rounded horsemanship.

The fact that USEF - as one of the largest governing bodies of our sport - is promoting this type of thing is just sad.

Again to your point, I don’t disagree with you at all that there are always going to be people with more money than others and thats “just the way it is”…the fact of the matter is that USEF could stand to do a MUCH better job supporting, and making “space” for those talented but less well-heeled riders, too.

[supershorty628]

@GatesRiverFarm

If you are riding at the Maclay level, you better damn well know how to wrap your horse’s legs and how to tack up! Sadly, you see these kids riding today who are being packed around 3’+ on their “daddy’s money” warmblood and riding at the Maclay level, and they don’t even know how to tack or wrap polos.

I see this trope all the time on these forums and I really don’t think this is as common as the internet loves to believe.

[chicagojumper]

@supershorty628

I see this trope all the time on these forums and I really don’t think this is as common as the internet loves to believe.

It’s not. All of our big eq kids know how to groom and tack, ride a variety of extra horses on the weekends when they have spare time, learn how to train youngsters, ride out the naughty ones, school the lesson horses, lunge and turn out, medicate, and general care. A lot of them also will teach the up/down lessons during summertime so they learn how to impart their knowledge to others.

High level big eq kids may have help from grooms but they didn’t get to the top being mediocre and not knowing how to care for horses. The vast majority of the time, they are hard working juniors who adore their horses and love to be at the barn as much as they can. It drives me crazy that there’s this stereotype that kids riding at Indoors don’t know the front end of the horse from the back. It’s just not true.

I know my barn is not some rare beast, either. Our program is very similar to other big eq barns.

[Momateur]

@NoSuchPerson

If you want to blame anything, blame urbanization. The real obstacle the horse-crazy kid faces in becoming a true horseman is lack of access to places where they can learn and the primary reason for that is urbanization. Those little farms and lesson programs where kids could hang out and learn to be horsemen are gone, replaced by subdivisions and parking lots.

Oh, I respectfully disagree. It’s a cultural shift. Horse knowledge is accumulated by hours spent at the barn. In today’s world, our kids are very overscheduled (present company included). Gone are the days of dropping Junior at the barn at 9 and picking her up at 4. I see the same thing every day – kids are dropped off, they ride, and they’re picked up almost immediately. Or mom and dad stay to watch, then whisk Junior away promptly afterwards. In general, I don’t think today’s kids have that unstructured barn time that my generation used to enjoy. Without that, how do they learn anything except riding skills?

Maybe this isn’t true for EVERY kid, but I’m at my barn daily. And I see this scenario play out daily.

[mvp]

@NoSuchPerson

I don’t see the “talented but poor rider” getting beat by the “mediocre but wealthy rider” as a problem. It’s more a fact of life. So what if shows at the upper levels become more and more expensive and exclusive? Why does it matter? There are lots of things that wealthy people do that are expensive and exclusive. It makes perfect financial sense to have horse shows that are also expensive and exclusive - and profitable.

The business model that calls a spending arms race a “sporting competition” works until it doesn’t.

Now, looking down the barrel of perhaps another and worse recession than the last one that thinned the ranks for the horsey set, perhaps this uber-elite model will finally fail. As much as a love to watch a beautiful round put in on a purpose-bred horse, and as much as I am a fan fo rigorous, selective breeding, I think it would be refreshing to bring some fairness and genuine competition back. I don’t care how the USEF creates a level playing fields (or many of them for those of us in different tax brackets), but I’m not paying to lose to rich people. My masochism has its limits.

ETA: And before anyone trots out some purportedly metaphysical truth like “Well, life isn’t fair,” let’s remember that much of this is made up. The socio-political system of the US which seems to underwrite this point of view is not shared in, say, Holland. And surely the structure of our sport is entirely made up. Things could be otherwise; that is literally true.

[atl_hunter]

@GatesRiverFarm

As I’m sure you can tell from my previous post, I’m quite passionate about this issue, so I’d like to reply again.

That is great to hear that the Maclay winner was pinned on a TB. I’ll also personally agree with your assertion that “some people happen to like a quiet horse” - that’s me, too! Also, I’ll emphasize again though that while it surely is POSSIBLE to win on a TB or “different” horse, the point is, this seems to be the far-and-few-between exception to a majority of the rest of what we see in the hunter ring these days.

Also, the point of my post was to say that while yes, it is certainly POSSIBLE to win on a TB if you’re a good enough rider and put in a “stellar” trip, the point is, a lot of what we are seeing in the hunter ring is LESS than “good” RIDERS consistently winning on the expensive European imports, just because thats what they are. They have “the look”, whether they’re being ridden well or not. To simplify that even more:

RIDER A:

• Excellent rider, can only afford 1 lesson per week, schools alone for other 5 days per week
• Plain bay 12 y/o OTTB ($5,000)
• Shows 2x/year (because thats all they can afford)
• Grooms, tacks, braids, lunges, & does everything themself

RIDER B:

• Mediocre rider, rides in 2 lessons per week and buys 4 training rides per week
• Dapple gray 10 y/o push-button Imported Warmblood ($120k)
• Shows the entire “rated circuit” all year (what budget? They don’t have one.)
• Pays grooms to tack & lunge
• Pays braider
• Pays trainer to ride the horse all week in “warmup” classes

Both riders show up to the XYZ Classic “A” horse show. For rider A, this is one of 2 opportunities this year they will have in the show ring, because thats all they can afford. For rider B, they’ve been showing consistently all year because they can afford to do.

Both riders enter the 3’ Adult Amateur division.

Rider A comes into the arena dressed in an Ovation helmet, hand-me-down navy blue hunt coat, unbranded black boots, a basic bridle, and older model Crosby saddle. They put in 2 very nice, smooth rounds. Nice distances and correct number of strides down the lines, but rider has to really ride well and “fight” for them. Horse has a slightly choppier, quicker looking canter and higher head carriage. Rider gets off, goes back to the barn and takes care of the horse.

Rider B comes into the arena dressed in a Samshield helmet, the latest hunter green Charles Ancona hunt coat, Fabbri black boots, a brand new show bridle, and the latest Hermes saddle. They put in 2 very nice, smooth rounds. Nice distances and correct number of strides down the lines. Horse does all the work and rider basically just sits there and looks “pretty”. Horse has a very smooth, slow-legged canter, flatter knees, and goes around perfectly on-the-bit the entire round. Rider gets off, hands horse off to the groom, and goes to sit in the VIP tent for lunch and to watch the grand prix with the rest of their stable-mates.

Rider A gets a 2nd and 4th place in jumping and 6th in the hack. Wins $40 in prize money.
Rider B gets a 1st and 2nd place in jumping and wins the hack. Wins $150 in prize money.

Now I’ll ask you…if we’re being honest, at your TYPICAL run-of-the-mill USEF A-rated show:

1.) Which horse is more likely to win?
2.) Which person is likely the better rider?
3.) Which rider is likely the better horsewoman?

You may say that it’s not “fair” to make “blanket accusations” (which this isn’t, its just an observation of what is the current greater majority at the A-shows), it also isn’t “fair” however, to the rider who works harder, trains harder, and is for all intensive purposes the better horsewoman to never quite pass muster in the show ring, because they will never have enough money, or the right “type” of horse to hang.

And again, while I understand that - regardless of the sport at hand - while there will always be someone with more money, a nicer this or a nicer that, our sport is unique in that money speaks a lot louder than in other arenas. Whether or not you have a $500 tennis racquet or a $100 tennis racquet, you still need TALENT to win. Whether you are swinging with a $100 baseball bat or a a $25 baseball bat, you have to have TALENT to hit it out of the park.

With horses however, it’s arguably MUCH different, and a lot of what we have today are again, the mediocre riders with the $100,000 horses who are constantly squeezing out the better riders with the $5,000 horses, and USEF and judges don’t seem to have all that much concern about it as the shows continue to become more and more expensive and exclusive.

Again…just my 2 cents. (okay, in this case a dollar, bc that was a long post! LOL)

Where do you live that you see less than stellar riders winning equitation classes because of their horse? I honestly didn’t see that at WEF when I was there this year and I don’t see it in my Zone. What I see winning are riders who nail their distances and ride a rhythm. I see a kid on an expensive horse who isn’t getting pinned, and I see a kid on a decent import who honestly isn’t easy to ride moving up the ranks and winning and placing in the Maclay (I’ve hacked him for her and he’s rough like riding a hand egg beater. He may look “nice” but only because she makes him look that way because she’s a talented rider who works hard).

Maybe you are in a zone where the situation is different? It’s possible. In the Atlanta area, we have several well attended unrated circuits which have fantastic awards. We have show managers who run both rated and unrated shows and use the same plush jumps for both. We have an awesome finals show for those who don’t want to spend the money to show rated. The kids can get an experience regardless of income level because if they can’t lease or half-lease we also have a very competitive IEA zone. And IEA really builds riders as you draw for your horse which is interesting to watch.

I can tell you are passionate about this topic and that you have a lot of dismay and angst. I’m equally passionate about the topic having started my horse career at 9 when I worked hard doing lawns and stuffing envelopes so I could buy my own horse after my parents said “you can get a horse if you buy it yourself.” Little did they know… When I showed Appaloosas I was a very poor college kid whose dad had died and my mother at the time was terminally ill. I showed against a Walmart/Hallmark heir and came out ahead and had their version of HOTY in three events. An impossible feat for a full time college student self funding the sport. I did it because I had talent and ambition and I didn’t listen to the naysayers like you.

Now I’m an adult. I’ve been doing the rates hunter thing since 2013 and there has been a learning curve as learning to jump as an older person is a bit rough as you tend to break when you fall. But I’ve stuck in there. I had a fancy horse as the first lease but my second one was more on the safe side. While the first one was fancier and was a hack winner, the second one was honest. At first we had some not so great shows as I was still learning and his “style” couldn’t help fill my gaps or cover my mistakes. So I had to work harder. I had to be accurate. I had to work to create the rhythm as he wasn’t that nice metronome ride. At first, I didn’t win a lot. And I guess if that is what motivates people then yes it could be frustrating to lose against nicer horses. I could see where one could blame the horse and give up. I didn’t. I like a challenge. So I kept trying. And learning. And growing. And eventually me and my TBx were competitive. It wasn’t because he suddenly changed. It was because I found a trainer who taught me how to ride him. I’m sure if you were ringside you’d think I was just sitting there looking along on a rhythm, but you’d miss the fact that I was doing so many things at once. I’m sure you’d remark about my leg, and would smirk and say something unkind, but the reality is that there were some approaches where even touching that gelding’s side (let alone squeezing) would have rocked launched me to Alabama. But it’s easier to sit on the sidelines and judge as so many do here. I’m sure you’d remark that I stayed over his neck too long after the jump. What you wouldn’t know is that my beloved gelding would launch forward if you sat up or back too soon. He was very sensitive - as are most TB or 1/2 TBs. you might have even mocked me for not sitting back and tall. The reality is that leaning forward a little slows a horse down. Keeps a soft body, as so many good hunter riders do, doesn’t look pretty and postured, because that prettier ride isn’t always effective. But who is truly the better rider? The one who looks pretty in a still photo on the internet? Or the one who rides in a way that results in the kindest, most consistent ride for their horse?

For me, it’s the latter. But it takes an adjustable and knowledgeable rider to know what the horse needs.

I’ve seen the keyboard warriors attacking riders from a still. “They can’t ride! They’re falling off the horse!” When you watch the video the rider is asking for a change over a jump to land the lead for a tight handy rollback. Yep, catching a single frame might look ugly. When you watch the entire transaction it all looks appropriate, makes sense, and is actually quite an advanced maneuver.

[atl_hunter]

@supershorty628

I see this trope all the time on these forums and I really don’t think this is as common as the internet loves to believe.

Neither do I, but it seem haters gonna hate. And so many LOVE to hate the hunters! It’s COTH’s favorite pastime!

[alternatesideparking]

Late to the game, but my .02 -

Sadly, you see these kids riding today who are being packed around 3’+ on their “daddy’s money” warmblood and riding at the Maclay level, and they don’t even know how to tack or wrap polos.

This may be true for certain kids showing in the hunter divisions. It is most emphatically NOT true in the eq divisions, and especially not true in the Big Eq. Why? Because the tests in the Big Eq are specifically designed to be RIDER questions; not something a really well trained hunter with a perfect lick and an auto change can coast around. This is the reason for single fences, technical distances in combinations, trot fences, broken lines, etc. Have you ever seen the flat work off in a Medal/McClay class? Where they’re asked to hold a counter canter around a turn, ride shoulder in, turn on the haunches, etc? That’s designed to trip up the kid whose sittin’ pretty on a packer. And what about the Eq Finals where the top riders switch horses for the last work off? In your scenario above, Rider B gets on Rider A’s horse and can’t get much out of it, immediately making it clear to the judges who the better rider is. That’s of course, assuming your Rider B gets to the final work off, which is not likely.

In a recent Big Eq final, the test required the riders to halt between the second and third fences in a 3 fence line; it was four strides, between the second and thrird fence, then jump the third fence. Again, designed to sort out the riders from the posers. The winning rider did it beautifully.

A final reminder: Hunters are judged on the HORSE: suitability, manners, way of going, overall impression of the trip. In A/O classes, that’s 8 fences, 4 lines, jumped from the same stride. EQ is judged on the RIDER - the total impression of the trip is still what’s judged, but the questions are RIDER questions.

If you’re going to criticize the sport, spend a little more time learning about it and understanding the rules.