Do you think the is a problem with hunters and equitation? Do you agree with the authors of these articles:
Changing the Culture of the Sedated Hunter Horse: https://horsenetwork.com/2017/02/cha…d-hunter-look/
Problems in showring: https://www.theplaidhorse.com/2017/0…-and-horsemen/
The Evolution of Equitation: http://equiery.com/the-evolution-of-equitation/
Well, you’ve lumped two disciplines and multiple problems here.
No one on here is going to argue with you on doping, but on the other hand we’ve talked about that so much that probably our whole stock of righteous rage on the topic is used up.
As far as equitation with a capital E, it is now a show discipline for well funded juniors who have grown up in a lesson program. It’s pretty pointless to compare how a 17 year old girl who has mostly ridden in arenas to a adult 19th century British cavalry officer who grew up riding daily in a horse culture and fox hunting. They both have different strengths and weaknesses.
”‹”‹”‹”‹Lots of people find the hunt show scene limiting and move on to eventers or show jumping.
Scribbler- I have no dog in the fight! I’m new to the Hunter world. Just stumbled across these articles and I was a bit surprised. I’m not a spring chick so I do remember when thoroughbreds dominated the hunter ring. I would groom or go watch the shows my friends were in. Back then, thoroughbreds were the benchmark. Today, I flip through the COH or other magazines and it’s all warmbloods. not saying it’s right or wrong. Just saying it’s different and the rides are different. My thoroughbreds I owned were forward- had more go than whoa. I never showed or jumped but I imagine that if I had nobody would have ever accused my horses of being sedated!
When I was researching equitation, I found a shocking number of threads about riders with severe eating disorders all attributing their condition to being in the equitation ring. So very sad.
Again, I was just researching the disciplines to see what exactly was what in today’s showring world…
Yes this has been discussed alot on COTH.
Over the decades many of the disciplines have become more stylized and less natural, and hunters for a variety of reasons has emerged as the discipline of choice for well funded juniors, who ride within a full training program run by adults.
If you want more old school do jumpers or evrnters where TB are still popular.
All the “show” disciplines have become more stylized and extreme like western pleasure and saddle seat.
The performance disciplines need to stay close to basics.
Scribbler- yeah. You are not the first Poster to say I should probably aim for jumpers (and hunter paces)! I have always loved eventing. Rode a few lessons with Suzie Gornall with my OTTB doing flat work but watched people doing cross country there at her place. Followed Denny Emerson for a long time as well. But, I can’t get past the horrendous safety record of eventing. I don’t want to die if my horse or I make a mistake. I mean nobody should ever die for a mistake. I get there are fluke accidents but the majority of eventing injuries are because of simple mistakes. Mistakes that kill both riders and horses. No thanks. I’ll pass on eventing…
What level of jumps are you thinking of? The lower levels of eventing don’t have anything like the death rate of the higher levels.
Honestly, at this point…I’m pretty spooked. Didn’t Christopher Reeves get paralyzed in a rotational fall at a low level of competition. That was what…in the nineties? The fact even low jumps are solid and can cause rotational falls just freaks me out. I might add that I’m not a timid rider by nature…I’ve galloped thoroughbreds, rode hot Arabians on trail rides, was the poor kid always getting rides on crazy horses that had not been ridden in 10 years, and never have had a made horse in my life…but have had bolters, buckers, tree swipers, head throwers, etc…and yet eventing at any level scares the crap out of me.
Was that a rotational fall? I thought he just fell off and landed in a very unfortunate way. But I did not see it myself.
Christopher Reeves’ accident didn’t involve a rotational fall. The horse stopped at a jump and Reeves fell off and landed on his head after getting tangled in the reins or bridle. Although it did happen cross-country, the fact that it was a solid jump was not a factor.
No question that there have been too many accidents in eventing. Nearly all of the rotational falls involve Preliminary level and above. Eventing at the lower levels is probably not much more dangerous for riders than show jumping, though I don’t have the numbers for you.
I dunno here. Much debated topic for all the near 20 years I’ve been on here resulting in some spectacular train wrecks. Now somehow morphing onto the Christopher Reeves Eventing accident and why are there so few OTTBs in Hunters today. . Gushing thanks for explaining and/or helping me from OP here and in the Hunter Derby thread. Sounds familiar.
Findeight- don’t know what you are getting at but I don’t appreciate it. Sorry I haven’t spent every day of my life monitoring what has been talked about on the forum. If you don’t have anything helpful or constructive to add than you can just choose not to respond to the thread. Just a thought.
Not true actually, just kept more under the radar and doesn’t make the news.
This is incorrect. This is why eventing will never get safer, everyone making up stats and claiming it is safer than it is.
There are just as many rotational falls at the lower levels. There are fatalities of horses and riders. There were 2 last year on course below Prelim, and 2 schooling at home below Prelim level.
OP doesn’t want to event, they don’t have to explain themselves.
Not quite sure what the intentions are of the OP but somehow I get the feeling it is a baiting-type thread. Are there more problems today than “yesteryear”? No…just different problems. Are you upset that WBs took over the TB in the hunter ing? Stay with TBs. You have already asked about a few local circuits in the Mass area where your TBs will fit in fine. More drugging today? Probably not…just newer drugs. Has the style of hunters changed? Yup…but so has almost everything else modern society. Eating disorders amongst junior riders in the eq has been around since the 70s.
Again…I am not sure what the goal of this is since you are “joining the ranks” of hunters and eq. I also cant figure out if you are a trainer, parent or rider. The info you are seeking may be different depending on the answer.
I dunno. I show hunters and I’m not a 1% person. I am, however, accurate and precise with my ride. If you want to show 3’6" A/Os or Juniors then sure, you will be showing against some people with deep pockets. But you can also show 3’ Childrens or Adult or the age equitation and find success. I think people are very quick to point to the horse and blame being underfunded rather than looking inward. My last horse had to show lower due to an old injury, so we finished his career in 2’6" which happened to have some very nice (including 6 figure) horses. The reality is that a 6 figure horse is only as good as its rider. While my horse was a freebie that my trainer gave me, I ended up champion or reserve at nearly every show. We did it by leaving rails up. We did it by finding distances. We did it by keeping a rhythm and pace. Would we have placed at USHJA finals in Vegas? No. Would we have ever qualified for Devon or Washington or any major final, even if he could jump the height? No. Did we have a great time and find success at rated shows? Yes. I’m going to one today with my greenie. I don’t expect him to win or even place well - he has a lead change issue we are working on. I do expect him to get experience and I do expect to have fun!
Also, you don’t have to show A or AA shows. We are seeing more B shows for a reason - because there is something for everyone. Some states like mine have a very healthy local hunter scene as well.
As for zombie hunter that are drugged the reality is that while people have used depo or other calmers, a lot of people don’t. And depo is now banned, anyway. I’m sure people think that my extremely quiet horse is drugged, but he’s not. I bought him this way because I loved how unflappable he is. Remember, we get Europe’s rejected jumpers. They are often rejected because they are too quiet. Having ridden TBs and TB types as a child, I very much prefer the warmblood ride. But I have friends who prefer TBs and have taken theirs to junior hunter finals. Some great bargains can be found with TBs but you have to know how to ride them. It’s not impossible - you just need to find a trainer who can teach and has experience.
As for the TB of yesteryear, they were great when we were jumping on outside courses and not small rings. The more technical the ride, the more focus was placed on accuracy and precision. We now related distances which weren’t so common back in the day, where it didn’t matter how many strides you got so long as you made it to the next jump on a rhythm. It was honestly easier to ride the outside course on a horse with such a nice ground covering stride where you could let them move out and do what they were bred to do - move out.
I’m with you in that I absolutely cannot even consider eventing until the safety aspects are addressed. I cannot consider a sport that seems to think its okay that horses die on course. Can’t even watch it anymore.
Hunter paces are fun! You could also consider the hunt club.
Big b-lls for a neophyte !
If you want drugged hunters, go back to the 1970’s. It was even legal for a while. When not, and various hunters turned into jumpers, a fad developed where one would tie the horse’s number around its neck to hide the blood spots from the syringe. Get real. I was there.
This is just my 2 cents - for what its worth - as someone who has grown up showing hunters for the last 30 years.
“Rated” show scene is becoming more and more financially exclusive - I don’t care HOW many “programs” or “scholarships” are in place to support talented riders who don’t have the financial backing to compete regularly on the circuit - the bottom line is, there are a TON of VERY good riders out there who simply can’t afford the rated shows. Therefore, a lot (not all, but a LOT) of what you have at the rated shows are drugged up, deadhead, push-button, six-figure “daddy’s money” imported warmbloods who are schooled to death by trainers and then lunged and handed off by grooms to primadonna riders who do little more than hang on while the horse packs them around straight to the winners circle. Arguably, very little riding, talent, or horsemanship involved.
Meanwhile, a far more talented rider with LESS money may be riding in the same class but has a more lively and spirited-yet smooth round on a TB that won’t pin as well…for little reason other than that its clearly a TB and doesn’t have “the look” and isn’t “slow-legged” enough. Isn’t broken down enough. So essentially what you have is two people paying thousands upon thousands of dollars to ride in the same class - one who couldn’t care less what the cost is - and another who has probably worked their ass off to be there, but won’t do as well because they don’t fit “the mold”…“the look” that for some unbeknownst reason has become the norm in this arena.
And then we have the topic of equitation/hunter overlap. Yes, hunters are about just that - the horse - but when we have the very top echelon of hunter riders consistently winning while drugging their horses, jumping up their necks, and their legs flying all over the place…somewhere, somehow, we have lost our way. And no, I don’t want to hear excuses about how “so and so is SUCH a good rider” and “well lets see YOU try to jump 4’ without your leg swinging”…because if you look up the classical hunter riders of times gone by, their equitation is BEAUTIFUL - NO EXCUSES.
Sad to say though that USEF seems not to care about any of these issues. Shows keep getting more and more expensive, and the awards keep getting less and less impressive. And answer me this: why is it at USEF shows that unless you are jumping the moon that there is hardly any payback to be had? When people are paying thousands upon thousands of dollars to show, why is it only the tippy top levels that have prize money? I have seen MULTIPLE local schooling shows lately that are not only vastly less expensive to enter, but that have had nice prizes AND money to be won at EVERY level. (This is of course a whole other topic independent of what goes on IN the ring). For example, I have CHOSEN to show my horse in the “lower” levels of the rated shows - lower fences - because she is getting older. Shes done enough and I don’t want to jump her into the ground. So does that somehow mean we shouldnt be eligible for any prizes or money??
I’m sure people will fuss at my rant - its just my opinion and my perspective - but I know I can’t be alone in my thoughts and feelings. Something has GOT to change.
Our Maclay winner this weekend at a sold out A rated show (was sold out even before the COVID 19 USEF announcement) won on her 18 YO TB that she pulled out of retirement as she’s selling her usual WB mount.
He didn’t have the look nor was he slow legged, but the judge wasn’t judging the horse since it’s the Maclay. The young rider rode the horse she had that day and put in a stellar trip. I wish people would stop getting on the forums and saying it’s not doable or the judge won’t use you. Ride well enough and the judge really won’t care what breed your horse is. You can enter the ring with the NICEST horse at the show and if you can’t nail your distances, establish a rhythm, and leave all the sticks up while staying on course I promise you that the TB that made it around a little quicker will still come out ahead. Getting 8 perfect jumps isn’t as easy as it seems.
As for “isn’t broken down enough,” that’s hugely speculative of you to say. Perhaps some people simply choose quiet horses because that is there preference? A horse got loose while my horse and I were on course this weekend - my horse did change his rhythm a bit and raised his head but that was about it. Most horses would have freaked out. I guess you’d think my horse is drugged or broken down for his failure to react, but you’d be wrong. He’s imported. He failed out of the jump program in his home country because he was too quiet. So quiet he doesn’t need ear plugs or longing or perfect prep or whatever. Lots of horses are like that - that is why they come to the US. They are too quiet to be jumpers. I know that is hard for some people to accept but I guess it’s easier to make blanket accusations about people, like me, who happen to like a more quiet horse. After growing up with TBs, Apploosas, and my most recent being a lovely TBx, I rather enjoy riding my more rhythmic, steady WB. Next time maybe I’ll pivot again and try something else like a Fresian for dressage or something. I’ve always found it better to not judge but rather to try to understand and give the unknown a chance. It’s worked out pretty well for me - my new horse is really lovely.
Not true. While rotational falls can and do occur at the lower levels, they certainly are less common there. Especially since most don’t usually consider Prelim to be “lower level.”
Which is not to say that lower level eventing is “safe” or doesn’t need to be made safer. But it does have a lower rate of rotational falls compared to the upper levels.
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