I’ve read on several different forums about problems with two dewormers, but I can’t find any supporting documentation on these problems. Could anyone point me to sites that either back up these problems or refute them?
The dewormers are Zimecterin Gold and Quest. However, I understand the problem with Quest is not the brand, but the chemical itself (Moxidectin). That Moxidectin must be carefully handled and exactly measured … more so than other dewormers.
At the same time, these dewormers are everywhere. Should there really be a problem, I wouldn’t think they world be prevalent.
“IMPORTANT SAFETY INFORMATION
ZIMECTERIN Gold Warning: Not for use in humans. Keep this and all drugs out of reach of children. In horses there have been rare reports of swelling and irritation of the mouth, lips and tongue following administration of ZIMECTERIN Gold. These reactions have been transitory in nature. Do not use in other animal species as severe adverse reactions, including fatalities in dogs, may result.”
Overdosing is the main cause of problems with moxidectin. The margin of error is much lower with that product than an ivermectin dewormer. I don’t have a label around but it might be available online- usually the company shows that the product was given “X” fold with no problem and so on. I believe Quest isn’t safe at 4 times the amount but I’m pretty darn sure ivermectins (avermectin) are rated safe at a much higher overdose.
That is one reason Quest/Quest Plus aren’t recommended for miniature horses- owners get the weight wrong or depress by accident an entire tube when the mini needed only 250# worth of product.
Ft. Dodge was INCREDIBLY less than helpful when I lost my young stallion to Quest. To the point they weren’t even interested in a necropsy, despite my vet’s contacting them…
So, purely anecdotal on my part. I lost a young, healthy horse, no worm overload, no overdose, to Quest. Our best guess (as I could not afford a necropsy after trying to save him for five days) is that it crossed the blood barrier via small ulcerations in the colt’s cheeks as his teeth did need to be done.
He had what may have been a stroke. One side of his face became paralyzed (the side the dewormer was administered on) and he lost his ability to swallow.
I also had reactions to Ft. Dodge vaccines (or their adjunct) in the first year the vax was available. Again, Ft. Dodge was INCREDIBLY uninterested in the correlations I experience in the two horses who got the vax vs. the rest (same food, water, environment, etc. etc.) who didn’t.
I will not risk Quest, and I will not use Ft. Dodge vaccines.
I use Quest on all my horses over 2 yrs and under 25 yrs as long as they are in good weight. I use it once a year and (knock on wood) have had no problems. I do not like Zimectrin Gold as some of my horses have had reactions to it. I usually deworm with Ivermectin, Strongid (once a year double dose) Anthlecide and the babies get Panacur the first 2 dewormings. Other than that I’ll only use it in a power pack as I do not think it is a very powerful rotational dewormer. Random fecal checks on my farm are always good and we run 40 to 55 horses here yearly.
Everyone has a preference to what they like to use and not use. And I am soo sorry for the poster who lost thier young stallion to Quest.
We recently spoke to our vet regarding his preferences for the rotation for our horses and we are starting with Strongid, then Ivermectin. We had Power Pak-ed the old guy already. I named Quest and he does not like it but did not say why. I didn’t ask about Zimectrin.
[QUOTE=horsegeeks;4734553]
THANK YOU for the information.
Quest I need to avoid … if nothing else I have a young horse and my thumb slips sometimes even on the best behaved horse’s worming tube.[/QUOTE]
I have the same issue, but it’s as easy as pre-dosing the Quest into another Luer Lock slip syringe (without needle) and using THAT to worm your horse. That eliminates the possibility of overdose.
I’m a little freaked out by Quest, but I do use it on my healthy adult horse who has a known worming history (and who is PP’ed 6 months out from the Quest, so I know he’s not carrying a huge strongyles load). I did not use Quest on him for the first two years that I owned him because I wanted to be sure I knew “the deal” before I broke out the big guns.
Do you double dose the panacur for the babies? Are you positive you’re getting the ascarids? Just checking, as there is a not-new, growing resistance of ascarids to ivermectin.
Anthelcide also falls into the “not very powerful” chemical these days. It’s effective still, afaik, against pinworms but only at a 1.5x dose.
Moving the medication to a wide mouthed syringe … how simple! Why I didn’t think of that in 30+ years in horses I don’t know. Talk about a “Duh” moment!
Moving the medication to a wide mouthed syringe … how simple! Why I didn’t think of that in 30+ years in horses I don’t know. Talk about a “Duh” moment!
THANKS for the idea![/QUOTE]
Well while we’re there, don’t make the same idiotic mistake that I made the first time. You want to hold the syringe tube horizontal or upside down, then dose the paste so that there’s some air left at the dispensing end of the syringe. That way when you go to put the plunger in, you can get it in there without immediately shooting wormer out the other end.
Fortunately I learned that doing a PowerPac with a Safe-Guard cattle tube, so I had extra paste to compensate for my mistake.
[QUOTE=Hilltopfarmva;4734936]
I use Quest on all my horses over 2 yrs and under 25 yrs as long as they are in good weight. I use it once a year and (knock on wood) have had no problems. I do not like Zimectrin Gold as some of my horses have had reactions to it.[/QUOTE]
What reactions with Z. Gold are you talking about?
I was just talking with a vet from Merial thsi afternoon, and he was saying 5-8% of horses have a transient reaction including facial swelling, but nothing at all like the moxidect. product (Quest/Quest Plus) on the market.
Thankfully I have never had a reaction to any wormer, with a any horse, including the many emaciated and parasitic-ridden rescue horses (including the minis) we’ve wormed. Of course, we are careful to select wormers and doses which are appropriate. I have always waited to deworm for tapeworms last… I’m not sure why I started it, but it’s been working good so far!
I have avoided quest due to the controversay which I think came up ten-15 years ago? But I did use it this spring for the first time mainly because its been so weather-bad and the local feed stores were all pretty empty of strong wormers.
I did not know about the mini thing which I feel fortuneate now because we have one - he is a big one but I gave him 1/3 a dose.
Now of course, I got the EquiMax which is one of my favorite wormers - and I picked up the Zim Gold because we have ten horses and there was only 7 there - because when I read the ingrediants - it is the same as the EquiMax but slightly lower doses.
Merial has a published sheet on their site discussing it, and many, many COTHers have experienced ulcers developing from contact with the product. Honestly, for all the hooplah about Quest, I hear MANY more reactions from ZG than from Quest.
Merial keeps saying “well just shove the tube all the way back in so it’s not touching anything up front” - well, ummm, perhaps they haven’t ever dewormed a horse? Besides, there have been ulcers formed, pretty quickly too so it’s not attributed to anything else, in the back of the mouth.
1/3 dose or 1/3 tube? big difference, and the former should never be done
Now of course, I got the EquiMax which is one of my favorite wormers - and I picked up the Zim Gold because we have ten horses and there was only 7 there - because when I read the ingrediants - it is the same as the EquiMax but slightly lower doses.
Should I be concerned about the EquiMax too?
I have never, ever, in all the years it’s been out, across this and another very populous board, in doing some searching to find anything out there, heard of Equimax causing problems. It’s not the active ingredients - if it were, Equimax should be causing more problems because it has more praziquantel per dose. It’s something in the carrier ingredients in ZG.
I actually would use Quest again before using the ZG. Go figure.
And yes, my Quest issues were ten years ago now (where does time go!) it was relatively new at the time… not brand new, but relatively new.
And I’m of an age where I can remember injectible Ivermectin causing HUGE issues. It was new, latest & greatest, and it took them a few dead horses to figure out it was far safer in an oral form for horses… :eek:
I would not be surprized if the Quest was tweaked after those early years. There were quite a few deaths attributed to it back then. I found I was FAR from alone. Many were overdoses–foals or minis… not all. My own vet had two other neuro reactions that year–so total of three. None of the three were overdose. Ft. Dodge didn’t respond to him on any of them. The other two didn’t die, one was fine in a few months, the other never quite right.
I wish, wish, wish I could have done my own necropsy, but after 10 days of trying everything on the planet to SAVE my guy… I was more than tapped out. Plus it being February in Maine, my only choice at the time was the renderer, who only took ‘whole’ bodies.
Quest was used at my barn this fall, about 30 horses. As far as I know, my horse was the only one with a bad reaction. He was really low for about a week. He is a healthy, fit, 10 year old Friesian in good weight. I will go back to Panacur next year and NEVER use Quest again. Even 1 out of 30 is too many.
Without knowing anything about the history of this horse’s deworming, or the manure/parasite management where he lives ,nobody here can comment with any validity on what happened.
But if your horse had acted punily after a dose of plain ivermectin (and yes, it happens) would you decry ivermectin ever again?
By “go back to Panacur” do you mean the Power Pack? If you’re talking about a single dose, don’t waste your money. If it’s the PP, then there are potential issues with that as well. Assuming it’s fully effective against encysted strongyles, fenbendazole kills the EL stages where they are attached, so they decay there, causing little ulcerations, just as if they had emerged. Cyathostomiasis. m
Moxidectin paralyzes the larva, so they let go and are expelled. No ulcers.
Your choices with a large encysted colony are to induce some colicy/ulcery issues at about Day 14 with the Power Pack, or cause some impaction issues. Neither are fun. Neither are inevitable if the horse is properly dewormed otherwise, twice a year with a macrocyclic lactone (ivermectin, moxidectin), and using FECs to determine any additional need.
But if it turns out your particular horse is just plain sensitive to moxidectin, then that’s fine, it happens ,just as it happens with every single chemical out there. That isn’t a valid reason to put a pox on it for every other horse out there, just like it’s not a good idea to refuse to vaccinate every horse just because a few have adverse reactions.
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**and yes I know this is a really old thread
I’ve run across a FB group called “Justice for BOGO…Reaction to Quest/Equest wormer”. The owner of this group started it after her beloved yearling died. She’s requesting that anyone whose horse has had a reaction to the products make a report to the FDA because they work in numbers.
I have always hated that we must poison our animals to kill the pests that attack them. And these ARE poisons we are using. It looks to me like at least some horses have a higher sensitivity than some others, and IMO, this needs to be looked into.
She’s posted video of BOGO’s illness, and although I haven’t used them, what could happen scares me.
