Proper positioning for farrier work -- of horse and farrier

[JoZ]

I’m wondering something. Horses can pick up their legs “straight” (parallel to their body, no torque to the elbow or stifle). Or, of course, their legs can be pulled outward away from their bodies. Where does your farrier hold your horse’s foot to work on it? When the hoof is between the farrier’s legs, is the farrier basically under the horse, so the leg can be kept closer to the body, or is it way out to the side?

I found that hard to describe clearly, hope you see what I’m getting at.

I ask because I think my horses and I have been spoiled. My former farrier was a fairly short, short-legged, flexible young woman. I don’t know how long she will “stay sound” but she definitely went out of her way to have the horses’ legs in a natural and comfortable position.

My new farrier does a great job, but I think that even though he is young, he has had some injuries (rodeo) that have made him stiff. He is more “the leg comes to me, I don’t go to the leg”. I don’t think he’s moving the legs in ways that they don’t go, it’s not that bad! But my horses don’t like it, and some have even pulled away. One mare needed to be buted before her trim. I have since had that mare put down, she was old and lame and found even the mild WA winters hard, so I sort of passed off her farrier problems as decreasing health and comfort. But it’s not just her, it’s the others too (younger, healthier).

These are all just trims, no shoes. If horses are supposed to deal with this, then my horses need to get with the program, and I’ll start pulling their legs off to the side more when I’m working with them. I just feel a bit bad because it looks like it is uncomfortable, not just that the horses are being pains in the butt!

[Marla_100]

I trim my own horses and I suppose they are a little bit spoiled in that I’ve always trimmed in a position to keep the horses comfortable. No problems
and horses were quite agreeable.

However during the past year, after I broke my leg, I had a very experienced
farrier come out to trim. My gelding just tolerated the awkward positions the farrier put his legs in, the young mare not so much. She finally put her hoof down and said no more. I tried to explain to the farrier how I hold their legs
(never between my legs) and how I positioned them (under the horse) but he was insistent on doing it his way. Didn’t work w/ the mare.

You can try discussing it with the farrier but it may not work. Some horses
try to teach the farrier, but sometimes farrier doesn’t listen. I believe in fairness and kind treatment of horses and it’s not always that they must accomodate uncomfortable positions that the farrier wants.

[Bluey]

I have tried saying polite comments about please hold the leg without strain on the horse, but it falls on deaf ears.

As a farrier myself for some years, being 4’11", I didn’t have any problem keeping the leg straight out there, but taller people really struggle with the shorter horses, have to squat so far, it just doesn’t work for them for many horses all day long, why horses end up with stretched out or pulled sideways legs while the taller farriers work on them.

We didn’t have that problem in Europe, we had an assitant leg holder and the farrier worked with the hoof in front of it, so the horse could be held where comfortable for the horse by the holder, that didn’t have any other to do but hold that foot out there.

You may lose the farrier over this, but for the horse’s sake, you just have to say something, but re-training your farriers may not work too well.
Mine is learning, he tries, but doesn’t get it right every time.
He shod at the track for many years, those young and generally taller horses he could hold without squatting, it is hard to change old habits, but he needs to keep trying.

[Sansena]

I have a few comments, none particularly useful. Just some questions and observations.

If it’s a trim, it shouldn’t take long so any torque applied to the leg ~within reason~ should easily be tolerated.

Next, if the leg is torqued outward in some unnatural fashion I have to question how the farrier is able to do a good trim, since it relies on the hoof laying flat on the ground after. One can imagine how torquing the leg outward would impact a level trim. Unless of course they’re compensating for it by releasing the hoof, measuring/ eyeballing angles with the foot on the ground, and finally watching the horse walk to check for correct and even break-over.

How long is the horse being asked to stand with their leg skewed out to the side?

[Kolsch]

I’m (of course) sympathetic to both sides of the equation. Personally, I go with the horse and try to not be so rigid that it makes them want to resist.

But sometimes I do hurt, and I need them to accommodate me a little bit more, so they need to be mentally flexible. On those days I give frequent breaks and reward the heck out of them.

Hoof Jacks are a godsend and make life easier for both parties.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Sansena;8893928]
I have a few comments, none particularly useful. Just some questions and observations.

If it’s a trim, it shouldn’t take long so any torque applied to the leg ~within reason~ should easily be tolerated.

Next, if the leg is torqued outward in some unnatural fashion I have to question how the farrier is able to do a good trim, since it relies on the hoof laying flat on the ground after. One can imagine how torquing the leg outward would impact a level trim. Unless of course they’re compensating for it by releasing the hoof, measuring/ eyeballing angles with the foot on the ground, and finally watching the horse walk to check for correct and even break-over.

How long is the horse being asked to stand with their leg skewed out to the side?[/QUOTE]

I can answer that one, you are working with the hoof up there and trim according to the hoof and what you were seeing before you walked up to and picked that hoof.

That the hoof is in front of you, as in Europe, that you hold the leg and hoof yourself, as when you work alone, if the hoof is sideways or not, well, you are looking at the hoof itself, so that doesn’t really matter.

One way to explain this, the other day I was showing someone a map and could tell they were not reading it, so I turned the page around so it fit with the world and then he could read it fine.

Well, as a horse shoer, you have to be able to read that hoof map no matter how it is presented, that is why you can trim no matter where the hoof is pointing to.
You are not really trimming with the world, here the whole horse, but what you know the whole horse needs.
Even then, once the horse moves, you may see something you want to change, but that is not so often, if you did see all you needed to before.

I lightly trimmed this old broodmare, that could not stand that well and I taught to lay down for us, with the hooves sideways and it was ok when she stood up.

Some that trim feral horses on a snake table, where they run horses down the narrow aisle to treat/brand/handle them, do the same, trim sideways.

When you work on a hoof, you stop and look at the hoof, evaluate and then touch up a bit more here and there if needed.

Hope that explains this a bit, here is the picture:

[2DogsFarm]

Great explanation, Bluey! :yes:

I have had barefoot horses for so long now I can’t recall how much longer it took for a hot or cold shoeing job.
But I have had a Hunter who was shod & observed both hot & cold shoeing/resetting.
As I am always there to hold my horses I can’t say I ever recall seeing a horse object to the way a leg was held or for how long.

My shoer - for the past 15yrs+ - is a pretty tall, older guy(60-something, 6’) but he always does my 13h Hackney Pony & lets his (younger & shorter) son do the taller horse.
I just acquired a mini & asked my shoer if he’d like me to get him a stand (think milking stand minus the neck-hold).
He said, No Thanks, he already has a client with 52 :eek: minis that he trims w/o a stand.
Mini is not yet living with me, so it will be interesting to see how this works for one.
I can’t imagine how all of that huge herd get done - even though I’m sure not all at the same time.

[Pocket_Pony]

Having spent time under my horses doing my own trims, I will preface by saying that it is HARD work and even though it looks like one might not be doing too much in the movement department, I don’t think anything else makes me sweat more.

The leg-between-the-thighs is actually not a comfortable position to be in, no matter where you are. I find it puts me all out of whack because I have to turn one leg in more than the other and hunch over and balance and it is just awkward.

I’ve had a couple trimmers who were good in that they would either use a hoof jack (the sling allows the hoof to be cradled and the leg to hang down straight) or they would kneel and the hoof would go on the one knee and the other knee is on the ground. Not so bad if the horse is steady and quiet enough. My current trimmer will also let the hind leg hang down and rest the hoof on his cocked foot - very kind to the horse who doesn’t like his hind leg jerked up and out.

I’d say it is somewhere in the middle. At some point you may have to have the hoof between the legs and so it would be good for the horse to learn to stand like that. But at the same time, it is important to be as kind to the horse as possible and understand that we are putting them in an awkward position for some time and they need a break!

[candyappy]

My farriers have always used the “under the horse” stance. What the horses really like is when the farrier uses a stand on the back legs.

[JB]

@Sansena;8893928

Next, if the leg is torqued outward in some unnatural fashion I have to question how the farrier is able to do a good trim, since it relies on the hoof laying flat on the ground after. One can imagine how torquing the leg outward would impact a level trim. Unless of course they’re compensating for it by releasing the hoof, measuring/ eyeballing angles with the foot on the ground, and finally watching the horse walk to check for correct and even break-over.

Because nearly all the trimming is done according to mapping - physically or visually - the foot and looking at the sole. Even if the leg is held in a laterally neutral position, that’s not how the leg moves. This means they need to be paying attention to how the foot/shoe was worn when they started and, if needed, watch/listen to the horse walk to tweak things correctly.

A bigger person, relative to the horse, can’t see or work on the inside of the foot as well as a smaller person, if the leg is in a laterally neutral position, so it’s all give and take. A competent farrier does the job whether the foot is on the stand, or nearly on the ground.

That said, the goal should always to be to pull the leg out of position as little as possible, both laterally, and in jacking up the hind legs. That’s just fair to the horse. But also, remember, most farriers and trimmers are spending hours and hours working bent over, and while you really don’t want to make trimming something the horse starts to avoid, there’s only so much contortion a farrier/trimmer can do over the course of a day. It’s just hard work.

[sunhawk]

I make an effort to really get under a horse and not make them uncomfortable or pull them off balance.