Proper way of listing a horse's bloodlines?

[rosebudranch]

So I regularly see horses bloodlines listed in such as manner as this

(Horse #1 x Horse #2)

Or

(Horse #2 x Horse #3 x Horse #4)

Can someone explain if 1) the positioning means anything and 2) when there are three like the second example, where does the 3rd come from?

I plan to dive deeper into the bloodlines, what produces what, etc over spring and more deeply as soon as a graduate as it intruigues me and I feel it important information for me to know with my personal goals. If anyone knows of good literature or people to speak to I would appreciate that as well!!

[rodawn]

You can also list them as:
sire - damsire - dam’s damsire or sire/damsire/dam’s damsire

Have also seen the Hanoverian Verband list as: Sire x Dam (by damsire)

[joiedevie99]

AxB is either sire x dam or sire x damsire

AxBxC is either sire x dam x damsire or sire x damsire x dam’s damsire.

[Home_Again_Farm]

And to be more confusing…

This one XXX-YYY/AAA/BBB means sire-dam/damsire/granddam’s sire.:winkgrin:

[Daventry]

@rosebudranch;6743020

So I regularly see horses bloodlines listed in such as manner as this

(Horse #1 x Horse #2)

Or

(Horse #2 x Horse #3 x Horse #4)

Can someone explain if 1) the positioning means anything and 2) when there are three like the second example, where does the 3rd come from?

I won’t speak in codes Yes, the position means something. In the example you gave; (Horse #1 x Horse #2) Horse #1 should ALWAYS be the sire. Horse #2 is always the dam. That being said, if you search the internet, you will find a few newbies who don’t realize this is the proper way to list bloodlines It annoys me when I venture to someone’s website and they have the dam listed first x the sire.

In your second example; (Horse #2 x Horse #3 x Horse #4) Again, Horse #2 and #3 are the sire and dam and Horse #4 is the damsire (sire of the dam).

As others have mentioned, some warmblood breeders like to just list the sire and the damsire. It would be written like this for example (Totilas x Rubinstein). The sire is Totilas and the dam is by the stallion Rubinstein.

Hope that helps!

[Hillside_H_Ranch]

I use Horse 1 x Horse 2
to indicate sire x dam

I use Horse 1/Horse 2 to reflect sire and dam-sire (and on down the line, as needed).

As far as I know that is the correct usage.

[vineyridge]

There are basically two different conventions in expressing a horse’s pedigree.

The German convention, which has been adopted by only a few other countries, completely ignores the mares in the pedigree. Some warmblood breeders who are not German use the German convention and would denote a pedigree in this way:
Horse=sire x sire of dam x sire of dam’s dam.

It is most common in the United States and most of the rest of the world (Thoroughbred convention) to denote the pedigree in this way:

Horse=sire x dam x dam’s sire.

To my way of thinking, the TB convention is far more enlightening.

[DownYonder]

In my youth, I hung around with some very old-timey SB and TWH breeders (some of those guys had been born way back in the very early 1900’s). They taught me that when writing bloodlines, the “x” always refers to a mare. IOW, the stallion was crossed (x) with a mare. I learned the following methods:

These examples all refer to Sandro Hit.

Sire x dam
Sandro Song x Loretta

Sire x dam (damsire)
Sandro Song x Loretta (Ramino)

Sire x dam by damsire
Sandro Song x Loretta by Ramino
I think the Germans would write this as Sandro Song x Loretta v. Ramino

And if not mentioning the dam’s name -
Sire / damsire / 2nd damsire
Sandro Song / Ramino / Welt As

Sire - damsire - 2nd damsire
Sandro Song - Ramino - Welt As

[RyTimMick]

It is proper to denote a pedigree by listing sire of the horse, and then the sires of the mares. It is confusing to input the mares name, then go back to listing sires again. I will use a famous horse as an example.

Cassini I/II Capitol I/Caletto II/Mambo/Consul stamm 3389

as see there is no mention of Wisma, the dam.

If one wishes to do so then you state it this way.

Cassini I/II by Capitol I out of Wisma by Caletto II
or v. Capitol I aus Wisma v. Caletto II

This list is supposed to tell you what the breeder bred to when making their decisions. That is the whole point. It helps to figure out patterns that work, such as the Capitol/Caletto II cross that we see in the Cassinis’, Indoctro, etc.

If you are not going designate who you are referring too, then you should follow this model.

Tim

[BaysofourLives]

Love this thread! I think these days the importance of the mare (even more so than the stallion) is becoming more realized so the mare should definitely be listed!

[RyTimMick]

[QUOTE=BaysofourLives;6744980]
Love this thread! I think these days the importance of the mare (even more so than the stallion) is becoming more realized so the mare should definitely be listed![/QUOTE]

It is about the mare, that is what is being missed. You know more about the mare because the breeding “CHOICES” the breeder made. Stallion can breed hundreds of mares in a year. We have tons of information on them. By listing those sire choices, we understand what the breeder was trying to do. These are the broodmare sires, it is about the broodmares. We talk about the mares by who they are by. For instance.

Corrado I. His pedigree is Corde/Capitol I/Maestoso/Frivol stamm 6879

The Capitol dam is Soleil. Now look at Cayado and Connor’s pedigree

Cayado Clearway/Calando I/Corde/Capitol I/Maestoso/Frivol stamm 6879
Connor Casall/Corde/Capitol I/Maestoso/Frivol stamm 6879

We can see that the Corde mares Errada and Korrada are full sisters and from the same branch of the stamm. The information is right there. We are talking about the mares, the reason Edward Struve chose to breed Errada to Calando I and Korrada to Casall tells us more about those mares then their name.

Tim

[sylvan_farm]

The OP is like many of my customers; they are not steeped in the breeding conventions of the various countries and societies. So to make it easier for them to understand the breeding of our youngsters, we list the pedigree this way:

sire o/o (out of) dam/dam sire
Ramzes SF o/o EM Fair Lily/First Gotthard

As a breeder I understand the importance of stamms and mare lines, but most of the customers are looking at the young horse and the dam who is on the farm. They don’t know stamm123 or motherline Jagdhuette.

Also, because we have developed a couple of mare lines that originate in the US (yes, based on European bloodlines with some US TB added), we want these mares to be recognized for their offspring. We always talk about ‘our’ marelines with customers.

[rosebudranch]

WOW everyone!! Thank you so much this is a great thread! I’m glad I asked!!

[Maryanne_Nicpon]

The correct way (though lots of people do it differently) is:

Sire/Damsire/2nd Damsire (Camiros/Marlon/Aldato). You can throw the 3rd damsire in there if you want to.

My HUGE petpeeve is when people say a foal is “out of” a stallion. NOOOOOOO! A foal is BY a stallion and OUT OF a mare.

[vineyridge]

[QUOTE=RyTimMick;6745039]
It is about the mare, that is what is being missed. You know more about the mare because the breeding “CHOICES” the breeder made. Stallion can breed hundreds of mares in a year. We have tons of information on them. By listing those sire choices, we understand what the breeder was trying to do. These are the broodmare sires, it is about the broodmares. We talk about the mares by who they are by. For instance.

Corrado I. His pedigree is Corde/Capitol I/Maestoso/Frivol stamm 6879

The Capitol dam is Soleil. Now look at Cayado and Connor’s pedigree

Cayado Clearway/Calando I/Corde/Capitol I/Maestoso/Frivol stamm 6879
Connor Casall/Corde/Capitol I/Maestoso/Frivol stamm 6879

We can see that the Corde mares Errada and Korrada are full sisters and from the same branch of the stamm. The information is right there. We are talking about the mares, the reason Edward Struve chose to breed Errada to Calando I and Korrada to Casall tells us more about those mares then their name.

Tim[/QUOTE]

How can you tell that the two mares are full sisters? That seems a fairly big jump from the information presented. First you’d have to know how many Frivol mares in stamm 6879 had foals by Maestoso. Then you’d have to know how many of THAT universe of mares had foals by Capitol I, and how many of THAT universe had foals by Corde. If the stamm started with those mares’ dam or granddam, you’d need to know that as well. You can’t distinguish between the sisters from the way the pedigree is denoted no matter what. The two sisters are different mares and not fungible. Unless the two foals are from the same year, how do you tell that two different mares are involved? It all seems unnecessarily obscure, when if the dam is listed, you can draw the same conclusions about the breeders choices from the pedigree itself.

[gumtree]

In a Thoroughbred’s pedigree it is pretty simple as Vinery pointed out;

XYZ horse is by, Sire‘s name, out of Dam‘s name, by Dam’s Sire’s name, going farther back, out of ( Grand dam’s name), by (Sire’s name of the Grand dam) out of (Great grand dam’s name) by (Sire of the great grand dam) etc.

The male line, top line is only mentioned once as is the top male line of the dam sire. Everything after that is the tail female line only, the very bottom line of a multiple generation pedigree.

So for this mare, http://www.pedigreequery.com/loved4 which we own, a 5 generation pedigree would read like this; Loved, by Pulpit out of Dearest by Riverman, out of Glowing Tribute by Graustark, out of Admiring by Hail to Reason, out of Searching, by War Admiral, out of Big Hurry by Black Toney out of La Troienne.
I threw in the 6th generation for an example of a mare’s tail female line that traces back to the often mentioned blue hen mare La Troienne.

This is a great example of line breeding that worked out very well, http://www.pedigreequery.com/sea+hero Sea Hero won the Kentucky Derby and was bred by one of the great private breeders Paul Mellon . Sea Hero was a top race horse but unfortunately he was not much at stud and was latter sold to Turkey. As you can see the bottom line, tail female, of his sire Polish Navy traces to La Troienne as does his dam, Glowing Tribute.

[RyTimMick]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;6745870]
How can you tell that the two mares are full sisters? That seems a fairly big jump from the information presented. First you’d have to know how many Frivol mares in stamm 6879 had foals by Maestoso. Then you’d have to know how many of THAT universe of mares had foals by Capitol I, and how many of THAT universe had foals by Corde. If the stamm started with those mares’ dam or granddam, you’d need to know that as well. You can’t distinguish between the sisters from the way the pedigree is denoted no matter what. The two sisters are different mares and not fungible. Unless the two foals are from the same year, how do you tell that two different mares are involved? It all seems unnecessarily obscure, when if the dam is listed, you can draw the same conclusions about the breeders choices from the pedigree itself.[/QUOTE]

I understand what you are saying. However I am referring to the diagnostics of the horses after knowing their pedigree. If I had only heard Casall/Corde/Capitol/Maestoso/Frivol stamm 6879 I would know that it was Connor. If you told me it was a Casall out of Korrada, I would also know that it was Connor, but when looking at dozens of foals on a field, and listening to pedigree’s rattled off it is too hard to list pedigree’s with dam’s names thrown in. When you here the list of sires, you go back to the blue hen mare and stop. It allows you to analyze a pedigree quickly on the fly. This way you only need to memorize the stallions pedigree’s, and in doing so you learn the mares.

My other reason would be that the #1 sport horse breeders in the world do it this way, and that is good enough for me.

Tim

Tim

[rosebudranch]

[QUOTE=Maryanne Nicpon;6745684]
The correct way (though lots of people do it differently) is:

Sire/Damsire/2nd Damsire (Camiros/Marlon/Aldato). You can throw the 3rd damsire in there if you want to.

My HUGE petpeeve is when people say a foal is “out of” a stallion. NOOOOOOO! A foal is BY a stallion and OUT OF a mare.[/QUOTE]

Ill admit I’ve done this out if sheer no paying attention, after I write it I’m like … Woah… That doesn’t do!

[vineyridge]

Tim, there is yet another full sister to Errada and Korrado named Fayence. She was bred multiple times to Contender and is the dam of Chellano Z. So now there are three mares all of whom look exactly the same when you only list the sires in the pedigree.

It really does look like male chauvinism at work. In the bad old days, it was believed that the mare was only the uterus, the sac through which the male passed on his potency. She was not thought to be anything but a conduit for the male. Those days are long gone, but the German convention certainly is embedded in that mindset, whether it is still the philosophy or not.

Inadvertently or not, it’s also magical language that only initiates can decipher.

[rosebudranch]

So, as I agree that the mare is very important, how is a concise way to incorporate the mare lines without it becoming an entire novel - obviously I would include all known Information in the long version, but what is the best way to summarize the important areas of the lineage…