Property Surveys

[ladymcts]

I’ve been house hunting for a few months now. I’ve made an offer on one house a couple months ago, but we were not able to come to an agreement on price. As I continue to look at more properties, I think back to another issue the seller and I had.

In the offer, I said I wanted to have a survey done. I did this because when I bought my first house 17 years ago, my agent insisted that I have a “staked survey” done, and we discovered the back yard fence was over on a neighbor’s property by about 2 feet. As part of the sale, we got a letter from the neighbor saying this was OK, and in 17 years it’s never been a problem. (I don’t believe the neighbor’s house has changed hands in that 17 years, but I’ve never become friendly with them, so don’t really know).

So back to the offer I made this year on a property with 8 acres, six of it fenced for pasture. The seller argued that there was no need for a survey, that I should just take him at his word and whatever we find on record with the county. He said that since his pasture had been fenced in for 12 years, that the state of Illinois says that the fenceline now makes the property line. He also argued that doing a staked survey now just lends itself to angering neighbors.

During negotiation, my own agent ended up siding with the seller a little bit, saying she’s seen more situations where a survey ends up making everyone mad, neighbors included. But I argued that the layout of this particular property was very odd, with a sharp “L” formation that made it look a bit like there started out to be two five-acre plots side by side, and the seller has fenced in the back three acres belonging to his neighbor. (If you’ve played tetris, think of a square block with an L block covering over it, and I would be buying the L.) I just really wanted to make sure that if I was buying 8 acres that it was really 8 acres to buy.

So as I continue to look, and do not currently have any properties in my sights, I’m curious to get your thoughts on surveys in general.

Biggest question - how much do surveys cost?!? I’m sure they vary from area to area, but I’d appreciate any ballpark pricing. I think the one on a small suburban home 17 years ago was around $300-350. I have been guessing that a horse property of this size might be in the neighborhood of $1000.

Secondly - how important is it to have one done, when considering a farm of size 5-20 acres?

[clanter]

[QUOTE=ladymcts;8950041]

During negotiation, my own agent ended up siding with the seller a little bit, saying she’s seen more situations where a survey ends up making everyone mad, neighbors included. ?[/QUOTE]

I used to be a bank officer, we would not provide financing unless there was a survey to insure the property was correctly described and presented

[airhorse]

Ditto, a survey has been required for us every time.

[DHCarrotfeeder]

Here in PA a survey was not required. I can see the importance in some cases. I’m not saying your RE agent is against you, but remember their reward comes from closing the deal and making everyone happy. The seller is probably nervous about the obvious risks (and costs) in the deal so disregard their input. If you are uncomfortable then express it to your RE agent.

[ladymcts]

I’m still very happy with my agent … she only expressed her opinion to side with him after everything was over and I had already walked away from negotiation.

Any idea how much a survey might cost?

Side note, the “L” property is still for sale. If it’s still available in April, I may consider making another offer, but I’m still not going to come very close to what the seller wants. It will have been on the market 2 years by that point.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=ladymcts;8950095]
I’m still very happy with my agent … she only expressed her opinion to side with him after everything was over and I had already walked away from negotiation.

Any idea how much a survey might cost?

Side note, the “L” property is still for sale. If it’s still available in April, I may consider making another offer, but I’m still not going to come very close to what the seller wants. It will have been on the market 2 years by that point.[/QUOTE]

A survey is too important to pass up.

No one has to anger neighbors over a boundary line, but you may anger a seller if he is trying to sell land it doesn’t own.

Here the title companies request one.
They are not very costly any more, with GPS surveying, it takes much less time than it did years ago.

[maunder]

I purchased four rectangle acres without a survey about 10 years ago. I will never purchase without a survey again.

I had the pin locations, but I did not have markers down the long, 1500 foot line of the property and the neighbor encroached and built a structure partially on my land. It took survey to prove that and all sorts of legal wranglings. If I had insisted the seller of the 4 acres provide that survey then none of that business would have happened.

Same thing on my north property. Recent survey had pins in place, but not marked down the long side. The new owners of the land bordering mine hired a logger, who misjudged the line and ended up logging several of my trees and cutting a logging road on my land.

Please insist on a survey, and make sure lines are marked clearly with stakes so no one is in doubt as to where the property lines are.

[Simkie]

Surveyed when we bought two and a half years ago. 10 acre rectangle, cost was a couple grand.

I agree that it’s worth insisting on, particularly on a weird property. Pretty odd that the seller let the deal blowup over it.

[gumtree]

I would not buy any rural property without it being recently surveyed and staked. IMO this is something the seller should have done before putting on the market if it hasn’t been in recent years. It doesn’t cost that much.

The last time I had a property surveyed in the early 2000s it cost around $600+ to stake over 100 acres. As it turned out on a 10 acres parcel across the street from the main property the owner of a little subdivision house encroached almost 200’. Had planted some trees, above ground pool, kids play ground, garden, etc. The surveyors came and got me saying you want to see where the stakes are. They might not last long.

That “neighbor” my only direct neighbor turned out to be a real butt head then and since. When I first met him after buying the property I told him I was having it surveyed, nothing personal. That I planned on fencing and putting up barn, equipment shed. He said" I don’t know why you have to do that we like it just the way it is". I was a little taken back and knew right then this guy was going to be a PITA. I said, sorry but it is my property and I do horses for a living.

When he saw the survey stakes the idiot payed to have another survey done. His “stakes” were placed right next to my stakes. But he also found out that he had encroached on the property on the other side of his. Overnight his property dropped by half in size.

DO NOT rely on “adverse possession law”. For or against you. The statutory requirement varies greatly from state to state. And can be very lengthy and costly to deal with in court. Regardless of which side of the fence you are on.

“Illinois says that the fence line now makes the property line. He also argued that doing a staked survey now just lends itself to angering neighbors”

Well, it certainly would anger the neighbors if the seller has encroached on their land. Could become a big hassle when one of the neighbors goes to sell their property and has it surveyed. IMO this is a big red flag.

If the neighbors are going to get pissed just because it is being surveyed and the property lines are as they should be. I wouldn’t want them as neighbors.

“my own agent ended up siding with the seller a little bit”

Unless the property is a “steal” at the price I would get a new agent. I assume you mean “my own agent” means they are a buyer’s agent and being either in whole or partially paid by the buyer.

Always remember the seller’s agent works for the seller. By law they are supposed to be fair and “equitable” but in the end they still work for the seller.

[hosspuller]

Zoning considerations too…

I too recommend a survey. You don’t want to place expensive fencing or (even worse) a building that you may have to take down. Also consider zoning, There are likely building set-backs and such. Neighbors may be the least of your troubles. Local gov’t may be against you too. Fighting “city hall” will be expensive and almost impossible.

Edit to add … Recent experience. I just put up a temporary wire fence between two pastures to keep the dog from roaming. After the fence was up I noticed survey stakes on the property line. Apparently the neighbor thought I was encroaching. I had the property surveyed 20 years ago. I knew where the line was and didn’t encroach.

[hosspuller]

Cost … Its pricing dictated by local market and complexity of the property. Odd shapes and rough terrain cost more in general.

… What ever the cost of a survey. It’s cheap compared to lawyers and/or moving your structures.

[IronwoodFarm]

We bought our farm from an estate and the heirs were not interested in paying for much of anything. However, there was no recent survey done and we needed it for financing. The farm came in two lots and we determined that it was to our advantage to make a lot line adjustment (made financing much easier and optimized future subdivision, if needed). So we offered to pay for half the survey cost. I think it was something like $1K or less for the two lots (95 acres total). They accepted that compromise. We both paid $500 each.

If you like the property, make an offer to pay for half of the survey. They seller should be agreeable. Worst case is that the buyer doesn’t close and then the seller has a recent survey. Seriously the survey is a minor acquisition cost and in the scheme of things shouldn’t be a big issue unless it reveals something problematic.

[sorabird]

Hello,

I am a land surveyor in Pennsylvania. We generally estimate a property survey to be about $1,000 depending on how recently it has been surveyed and if the surveyor finds any issues with the record that would require additional research. Illinois is a public lands state so that should make things easier. However if you think that the seller is adversely possessing 3 acres I would not buy the property. Adverse possession has to be proven in court it doesn’t happen automatically. Why buy a property that has known legal issues attached to it?

[Mango20]

I agree that a survey would be a good thing. However, if you just want to check if the L shape is legit, most counties have an online GIS which shows property lines. Just google “_____county GIS” and you should find it. There should be layers you can turn on and off, but most default to showing the property lines. Here’s an example: https://www.webgis.net/va/Greene/

[froglander]

We bought our 5 acres a year ago. Had to have a survey done for financing or was required by title company, or something like that.

A few months after we bought it, needed the survey anyway (so was glad I had it!) when we wanted to put up a structure for shelter so I could bring my horse home.

Does your financing require it? Does the county require it?

[HungarianHippo]

[QUOTE=Mango20;8950440]
I agree that a survey would be a good thing. However, if you just want to check if the L shape is legit, most counties have an online GIS which shows property lines. Just google “_____county GIS” and you should find it. There should be layers you can turn on and off, but most default to showing the property lines. Here’s an example: https://www.webgis.net/va/Greene/[/QUOTE]

Do not under any circumstances rely on county GIS files as legal property lines. They are merely there to document tax parcels and are not at all reliable. My work used to involve using both county GIS and then later we’d get stamped surveys and the county lines were very often off. That said, it’s worth checking if there’s recent stamped survey on file, which should show any existing fencelines.

[seabreeze]

My husband is a surveyor. Pricing varies widely based on numerous variables: what exactly you want done, complexity of research, adjacent surveys, etc.

I’m going to say the average homeowner survey is in the $2k range. Farms and larger properties are usually significantly more expensive.

I can’t tell you how often “the county” has it wrong. Do NOT depend on a tax map.

[ryansgirl]

[QUOTE=HungarianHippo;8950494]
Do not under any circumstances rely on county GIS files as legal property lines. They are merely there to document tax parcels and are not at all reliable. My work used to involve using both county GIS and then later we’d get stamped surveys and the county lines were very often off. That said, it’s worth checking if there’s recent stamped survey on file, which should show any existing fencelines.[/QUOTE]

Totally agree. I’ve worked in engineering for years and I can’t tell you how many times those GIS sites are off. We do use them as a starting point every now and then to see if a site is remotely close to being feasible for what a developer wants. If it looks like the site may work then we get a full survey done.

The cost of a survey depends as others have said on so many factors. It is definitely worth doing and I would NOT rely on the sellers word.

[ladymcts]

Thank you so much everyone!

To be clear, there are many reasons not to go forward with the specific property I mentioned before. But I was mainly trying to get a sense of cost and benefit for any other properties I consider.

I too had seen the disclaimers on the Tax map website … glad to hear from others confirming that I shouldn’t rely on them.

To answer a couple of the questions - I know for sure the state and county don’t require the survey, which is why I’m even bothering to ask. On the one property I bid on so far, my bank never mentioned a survey but we didn’t really get that far along in the process. I had gotten an approval on the loan and they even sent it to underwriting (before we had an agreed-upon price), but the only thing my loan officer mentioned was an appraisal.

[Palm_Beach]

I think that most banks require a survey - the simple one where the property is researched and you get a survey map, but the property is not staked. The survey where they actually stake the property is more expensive, and usually not required by the bank.

“L” shaped properties are not that unusual if lots with road frontage were sold off at some point, leaving agricultural acreage intact behind them.