Proposed New USEF Green Hunter Rule

[Pennywell_Bay]

[QUOTE=kirbydog;7257632]
I agree with Dags! Just because they have shown in the 1.15-1.20 in Europe doesn’t mean they have a clue about being a hunter! It’s a different mind set, different style different question all together. And since most of these horses are imported with the idea of being sold, more than likely to a non-pro, they really need “re-programming” with a professional to teach them their new jobs, something that needs to be done at a lower height. IMO[/QUOTE]

No dog in this fight (my five year old won’t be doing 3’6 with her mother this year…but I’m a USEF member with very nice young horses. No PGI program for us.) but I hear from this board and some other people some of the prospects brought over are the jumper “rejects” (NOT my word) so are more hunter-like and apt to excel in our hunter program.

[ponyflyer]

Good morning,

I have been following this thread with great interest. I both hear and understand all of the points regarding European horses and the effect of this rule on American bred horses.

The rule change is far from perfect and also is not as strong as I would like it to be. However, it is enforceable where the previous rule was pretty much unenforceable. Through working with the USEF (which I then backed up with independent research), I have found that the following data can be reliably accessed:

USEF
Equine Canada
FEI

Breed registry data can be accessed but that process is most often done by e mailing the registry and waiting for an answer. It is a time consuming process that is not practical at this time.

I would have preferred to not exempt the FEI Young Horse classes but I can’t win every battle that I fight.

This rule change was done on an extraordinary basis (which is why it is not in “In Stride”) to do what we could to close a loophole for the Pre-Green Incentive classes. I am fairly certain that some of you will not like my answer and I am happy to discuss this matter with you. My e mail is mbabick13@gmail.com and my cell phone number is on the USHJA website. The only time I don’t pick up my phone is when I am teaching or riding. I am always ready to listen to ways to improve our governance decisions.

On that score, I strongly encourage any and all to attend the USHJA Annual Meeting in December. We will be discussing whether or not to implement age group hunters. This should be an interesting discussion. And, if you cannot attend, please feel free to email me your point of view. The only thing that I ask is that you tell me who you are and whether or not you are a member.

Our industry is imperfect and there are many injustices. I have chosen to try to make a difference for all of us and that is why I spend a truly large amount of time volunteering for both USHJA and USEF. Please feel free to send me suggestions, comments and criticisms.

Regards,

Mary Babick
Hunter Working Group Chair

[2bayboys]

[QUOTE=kirbydog;7257632]
I agree with Dags! Just because they have shown in the 1.15-1.20 in Europe doesn’t mean they have a clue about being a hunter! It’s a different mind set, different style different question all together. And since most of these horses are imported with the idea of being sold, more than likely to a non-pro, they really need “re-programming” with a professional to teach them their new jobs, something that needs to be done at a lower height. IMO[/QUOTE]

I’m not disagreeing, but why should horses who got their jumper experience in this country NOT be allowed to show as a green hunter, but horses who started life as jumpers in Europe do get to take advantage of that loophole?

I had a jumper turned hunter and it would have been lovely for him to be reincarnated as a green horse, but it was and apparently still will be against the rules.

[Peggy]

Mary, I think I understand it from a burden-of-proof standpoint. Green is defined as the lack of something which is harder to prove or demonstrate than the presence of something. You can send proof that your horse has done something, but not that they haven’t.

I suppose you could have people sign an affidavit that, to their knowledge, the horse has no experience of any kind at 3’6" or higher. Then, if it emerges that the horse does have said experience, USEF would upgrade them to the appropriate division, take the inappropriate points away, and/or penalize the owner, depending on the situation. Emerge could equal someone finding evidence to the contrary. Perhaps the threat of having that happen would keep people honest, but it would definitely be complex, and might catch someone who really and truly thought a horse didn’t have prior experience.

You can’t legislate sanity or ethics.

[ponyflyer]

Peggy,

Funny that you should say that about eligibility. There is a line in the rule that says that the owner is responsible for eligibility. It would be nice if people would do their due diligence.

You also can’t legislate morality.

Mary Babick

[DMK]

Amen to that. I can appreciate the need to create an enforceable modification to the rule in the short term. Nothing is more frustrating than a lack of clear guidance. But long term changes to create a level playing field are absolutely critical to the long term success of hunters. Here’s hoping the USHJA and USEF take that charge seriously.

[vineyridge]

Has the USEF reached out to other NFs and their associated disciplines? I know that British Eventing, for example, keeps all horse records available on line, as does USEA. Since Passports and Passport information accompany all imported horses, just requiring that the importer provide that information to the USEF and USHJA when a horse is recorded and registered and refusing to record horses without it would give the organizations the information that they need to access records in other NFs.

I believe the Brits are considering reopening their National Equine Database, and I think the Irish CapallOir contains show records.

I cannot read German, but I cannot believe that their FN doesn’t keep show records. Same for the Dutch and Belgians.

[MHM]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7261567]
Since Passports and Passport information accompany all imported horses, just requiring that the importer provide that information to the USEF and USHJA when a horse is recorded and registered and refusing to record horses without it would give the organizations the information that they need to access records. [/QUOTE]
If that were a requirement for all horses to be recorded, what about all the horses that are NOT imported? How is USEF supposed to determine which ones were actually produced in this country? Not every horse and pony comes with papers.

[Pennywell_Bay]

[QUOTE=MHM;7261645]
If that were a requirement for all horses to be recorded, what about all the horses that are NOT imported? How is USEF supposed to determine which ones were actually produced in this country? Not every horse and pony comes with papers.[/QUOTE]

Good question. They don’t care because “generally” we aren’t forking out the big bucks? (sarcastic, but that’s how if feels)

[kirbydog]

[QUOTE=2bayboys;7260199]
I’m not disagreeing, but why should horses who got their jumper experience in this country NOT be allowed to show as a green hunter, but horses who started life as jumpers in Europe do get to take advantage of that loophole?

I had a jumper turned hunter and it would have been lovely for him to be reincarnated as a green horse, but it was and apparently still will be against the rules.[/QUOTE]

There are no easy answers here, and i see your point, 2bayboys. It is biased against American started horses. One thought that comes to mind is the way Capital Challenge runs their pre-green (forgive me if I’m wrong here, haven’t been there for 3 years). Don’t they split it by age; 4-5 year olds, 6-7 & 8 yrs? They also divide by gender. That seems to make the playing field a bit more even…the younger horse division is a very different class to watch then the 8 year olds. That would also help the OTTB’s that come into hunterland at a later age.

[Go_Fish]

[QUOTE=2bayboys;7260199]
I’m not disagreeing, but why should horses who got their jumper experience in this country NOT be allowed to show as a green hunter, but horses who started life as jumpers in Europe do get to take advantage of that loophole?

I had a jumper turned hunter and it would have been lovely for him to be reincarnated as a green horse, but it was and apparently still will be against the rules.[/QUOTE]

I would imagine it’s because horses in Europe don’t have hunter divisions to compete in. Some trainers in the US will start their babies in the hunter ring before moving on to the jumpers.

Call me crazy, but I don’t have a problem with horses that have competed in the jumpers exclusively to “re-career” at the pre-green level in the hunters. Totally different discipline. Just because both require jumping efforts doesn’t mean they have the same requirements. And, no…I don’t have any jumpers looking for a new career in the hunter ring so I think I’m pretty unbiased here.

[Personal_Champ]

@ponyflyer;7261261

You also can’t legislate morality.

And this is the crux of the matter. I volunteer heavily at our local level, and we have issues all the time with horses in divisions they don’t belong in.

I say it all the time - you can’t write a rule for everything, because someone will find a way around it. There are too many in the industry without ethics and morals.

At least it seems the problem is recognized and effort is being put forth to try and change it.

[juststartingout]

[QUOTE=Go Fish;7261780]
I would imagine it’s because horses in Europe don’t have hunter divisions to compete in. Some trainers in the US will start their babies in the hunter ring before moving on to the jumpers.

Call me crazy, but I don’t have a problem with horses that have competed in the jumpers exclusively to “re-career” at the pre-green level in the hunters. Totally different discipline. Just because both require jumping efforts doesn’t mean they have the same requirements. And, no…I don’t have any jumpers looking for a new career in the hunter ring so I think I’m pretty unbiased here.[/QUOTE]

It seems to me that there are plenty of other divisions to “retrain” a jumper that has already competed at 3’6" without making them eligible as Pre-Green