Pros and Cons of Whips

[twofatponies]

Here’s a ponder I’m having. My Morgan mare has been under saddle two years - we do some schooling a la dressage, working on details like nice transitions (current project), and lots of trail riding. She’s older (former Amish buggy horse) but was pretty green under saddle when I got her.

Anyway, she has a basic mellow, even sometimes lazy personality. But then she has “Amish mode,” which she lapses into when she’s worked up, where she just wants to go fast fast fast, and locks up her neck, and grunts like a pig and grinds her teeth. She’s improved VASTLY in two years. The lapses used to occur with much more severity and frequency. Now it is limited to a couple of scenarios, so I foresee it getting better and better with “wet saddle blankets.”

The scenarios are: having just tackled a bit of difficult terrain, such as a tough hill up from the river through waist high brush; being passed or riding side by side with another horse at a trot or canter; and being last in a group, especially at the canter. The latter has been improving rapidly with practice. Things like flies or heading home will exacerbate the situation.

So my ponder today was, sometimes she’s in lazy mode (just came in for a nap), or just a little unwilling (to head out on the trail near dinner time, for example), and really ignores my leg, and I really need a crop to back up my leg. But if she’s in Amish Mode, I really need not to have the crop, as it adds too much go to her going.

A former trainer was of the opinion that it was not a good idea to always carry a crop or whip, because the horse then becomes dependent on it, sort of like if you overuse your leg, and the horse tunes it out. I worked on that for a long time with that trainer, and am quite good at keeping my legs off when they aren’t needed, and using minimal aids when I want more. And 90% of the time that works fine. It’s true that if I carry a crop, she sees it, and knows it’s there, and doesn’t mess around.

Other people I know always carry a whip, and don’t seem to worry about the horse “becoming dependent on it”. It’s just no big deal. In fact, it might be beneficial to have the horse “get used to it” and not react to it being carried until it’s applied?

Other options might be small spurs instead of the crop? Or just carrying the crop in my boot so she doesn’t notice it until I pull it out? What are your experiences/opinions on this?

[Romantic_Rider]

My Mom and I are endurance riders, as well as just trail riders, and we carry crops all the time. Much of the time we don’t need them, but it is a safety thing. If a horse is misbehaving, balking, etc… a tap with the crop on the shoulder is enough of a reminder to get them going without by any means being harsh punishment. I’d rather ride with one and not need it, than be caught without one in a situation where I do need it. Horses can be very stubborn when they want, and I’ve never used spurs.

[Guilherme]

In most cases the crop is an extension of your arm allowing you to touch the horse in ways you can’t otherwise do. It can also re-enforce the leg as a secondary function.

The spur is used to precisely cue the horse (it’s the difference between touching the horse with a pointer and touching it with rag mop). It also has a secondary function of re-enforcing the leg.

Horses can no more be “lazy” than they can “steal.” That’s anthropomophism in action. When a horse refuses to go forward it’s generally because they are trying to evade work (while they can’t be “lazy” they can be fatigued). They can also evade as a test of dominance with their rider (“I’m not gonna do it and you can’t make me!!!”). Or they’ve been frightened by something. Or maybe something else entirely. Each case must be correctly analyzed and a proper correction applied. A crop or spur might be the way to go, or it might just make a bad situation worse.

You may also just have a horse that is young, inexperienced, and needs “seasoning.” If that’s the case then I’m not sure that adding a crop or spur is the way to go. If you do add it/them be VERY judicious in their use (as a “reinforcement” not a “substitute”) so that you don’t create either a dependancy or, in a very bad case, a “blowup.”

Any chance you could ride with an experienced coach who could observe some of the offending conduct? That would put a new set of eyes on the problem and maybe lead to a quicker solution.

Good luck in solving your problem.

G.

[twofatponies]

Thanks for the suggestions.

This horse is “young” under saddle, but not young in age (she was an Amish buggy horse from ages 6-11). She was used to a very stop-start kind of work - either she was going 60 mph to the store, or she was standing tied at the store, waiting to go 60 mph back home again!

I do have a very helpful current trainer I take a lesson from once a week, but she is away for a few weeks, and I had a couple of frustrating moments recently. I’ll definitely get her input when she gets back. Useful to see what other people do, too.

My former trainer was so insistent about not using a whip, lest the horse become dependent that I’d just stopped using one. I wondered if that was a common idea, or just her idea.

[katarine]

crops are for added go and impulsion. Spurs are for added lateral clarity. The two aren’t interchangeable tools, their functions are different (done properly).

Your mare has no clue there’s anything inbetween 10 and 60 MPH. Your job as her rider is to show her you control her stride, her impulsion, and her gaits. Good days/bad days is just another way of saying some days she doesn’t know what to expect so she goes slower, other days she doesn’t know…and goes faster.

I’d work on good quality circles with nice impulsion from behind, using your crop to reinforce your leg as needed. Squeeze/cluck, then bigger bump/squeeze/then tap tap TAP TAP til she’s fresh off your leg.

Horses should also be rubbed and praised with the crop so it’s no big scary deal. I ride with one a lot of the time, and my horses know it’s there, but they also know it is good for scraping deer flies off, so it’s welcome

She’s just not very broke, so get her broke

[Guilherme]

Yes, your horse is ‘young, inexperienced, and needs “seasoning.”’ In this case it has nothing to do with age and everything to do with training and experience.

Katherine is probably right that the horse is just not very well broke to saddle. Teaching the horse to “rate” will be a challenge, but can be done. You’ll spend some time doing 20m circles at various gaits and speeds, but that may be a better program than just trying to add “go” or “slow.”

It will also condition the horse better for saddle work. The muscles used to pull and carry are not all the same.

In this program remember Alois Podhajsky’s Mantra: I Have Time.

Don’t rush things and you won’t create problems that will have to be solved later.

Good luck with the horse.

G.

[twofatponies]

Good points. I’ve never ridden with spurs on any horse, so thanks for clarifying their purpose.

This horse has made great progress - I just need to be patient! I have to keep reminding myself she’s the equivalent of a young horse, in not knowing much!

I will try the short crop for a while - you’re right, it is useful for getting the flies off!

It makes more sense to think that a horse might be dependent on the whip if you always USE it, but it shouldn’t be an issue to simply carry it, and use it only when needed to back up the leg.

[Halcyon_Days]

I always carry a crop, I have a double ended snap attached to my saddle and the crop is usually hooked there, I can quickly get it if I need it. Great for popping horseflies, poking away blackberry vines and waving madly in the air in front of my face to get the spiderwebs before they get me. Balking makes me crazy, and you don’t want to be out there on a greenie without a crop. My friend rides a stubborn gelding (no crop) who at times refuses to lead and will just slam to a stop, or even better, rear and spin around. This is an EXPERIENCED endurance, trail and field trial horse. Grrrrr. I pop mine at the first sign of slowing down/bracing against the leg. I’ve even had to use my crop once on a horse that I was riding with, the two horses were talking smack and the other lunged to bite my horse, but was lunging right towards MY leg! I popped him on the nose with the crop, don’t think he’ll be trying that move again. So, the short answer, is that yes, I think crops are very handy, I wouldn’t want to train/ride/compete without one–if you don’t like holding it, just hook it somewhere–better to have it and not need it, than desperately want one and not have it–and no trees in sight either

[goodhors]

I am going to second carrying a crop/whip. This is because horse is green in experience under saddle. I would strongly recommend a long dressage type whip, probably the 36" one. A short crop has always been a mystery to me on usefulness beyond doing horse games. Too short to use without taking a hand off the reins, whacking yourself in the leg.

The longer whip is indeed an extension of yourself, reaches the front or rear of horse for more definate touches on the FAR parts of horse. Short whip pushing on the barrel is confusing, “Give in the stomach, move WHAT away from that tapping??” Touching a haunch behind the stifle, gives horse an easier part to move away. AND you keep both hands on the reins, supporting the bit, keeping control of the front equally.

The down side of longer whip is having to carry it all the time. Even stuck in your boot, it gets in the way of your elbows, catches on stuff along a narrow trail.

I would look at using spurs in conjunction with whip use. Horse learns the spur as an aid, understands how to react to being touched with it. You SAID you could ride with legs on and off the horse, which denotes good body control to use spurs. You do have to pay attention to spurs, not use legs without thinking. Using both spurs and whip together, you should be able to transition to spurs alone as horse training progresses. You will be able to put your leg where you want it for cue to speed up or step off into a nice canter, not race off when touched. Spur will help her respond correctly when her training skills are better.

I am not sure about a horse ever being dependent on a whip, either not working without one or over-responding when you do carry it and touch him with it. I agree with the others, that carrying whip all the time, SHOULD make horse ignore it 99% of the time, as something to get excited about. Every horse may have the moment a whip touch is needed, and they go “Oh Yeah! Mom REALLY meant NOW!”

Again, as horse gains understanding of your commands, you should be able to transition MOST command emphasis on the trail, from whip to spurs if needed. Spur would be able to add the extra emphasis, if leg is ignored the first time. You would probably be able to leave whip at home eventually, after you and horse have worked out the communications for requests. I would rather ride with spurs than juggle the whip for a couple hours.

I find spurs can be very subtle, not hard to use with trained legs, TRAINED horse. I wouldn’t dream of using spurs on a just-started horse, or probably even in the first year of riding. He doesn’t understand yet, doesn’t know the communication needed to respond correctly. I would be carrying that long whip for him. Aid him to learn much easier than spurs, at this point in his training.

Once horse can do leg yields, sidepass, turn on the haunches, forehand, all smoothly and easily, then he is starting to get it with leg directions. Might be ready to move into small, blunt spurs.

I would recommend using strap-on spurs. I have never seen the slip-ons that stay put under stress. I would use real spurs, Prince of Wales model is a good one. Horse can feel it, not too long or short, you can keep it off him if you want. Then you can work on lightening him up to feather-touch response. Just brush your foot on the side and shift weight, CANTER off smoothly. How light and responsive can you get?

I tend to wear my spurs low, just above the heel of boots, not on the spur rest of English boots. I find better control with lower position, easier to keep my heels off the horse. Probably from starting with Western spurs and one VERY responsive horse. She could read my mind about gait requests after a while. Just me thinking about it, she would prepare herself, and always be correct when I finally asked for the gait or changes. She would not be the same horse without the spurs being worn. She was still good, but sometimes I got the busy signal on gait requests. Never really needed to use the spurs, just got to wear them and look very cool.

Sounds like you are working the horse in the ways needed to get her smoothly modified into a good companion. As already said, lots of wet saddle blankets will do the best job. Some observation from the trainer in situations where she is not happy, could enlighten you. Some of her past plus your inadverdant signals are confusing her in that moment. Trainer can suggest changes to gain success easier.

Keep us posted on progress.

[twofatponies]

goodhors - most of my riding years have been spent in dressage - trail riding (and this horse) are newer to me. So I am very comfortable using a dressage whip, more than a short crop, for the reasons you said, but like you said it is clunky to carry trail riding.

But I think I will try using it daily for a while, to get her less over-reactive to it merely being present. I do need it sometimes to reinforce my leg, especially on her left side.

She leg yields nicely, but we haven’t worked much on turns on the forehand and such yet. That will be something to work on going forward.

[gabz]

Not sure about the space beneath an English saddle, but I’ve frequently carried long crops by sliding them under the center of the saddle - between saddle and pad. I have only a 4’ dressage whip besides the crop - I do not carry that riding (trails) .

[BaileyTW]

I bought a cheapie, light-weight dressage whip ($12 Roma brand) at my instructor’s suggestion and then taped it up with bright orange vetwrap (my instructor was almost as mortified as when I came to the barn with the blue and green hawaiian print dressage pad) to make a handle and so it would be more visible if I did drop it on the trail.

Anyways, I havent had any issues carrying it. It comes in handy to shoo flies off Baloo’s poll and neck where I can’t reach.

Like others have said, its a great extension of yor arm. I mainly use mine, just lay it or lightly tap it against Baloo’s shoulder to remind him that he is NOT a barrel racer anymore and needs to keep his shoulder upright when turning the corner. He knows the difference between me shooing flies with it and when I cue him with it, he doesn’t tense or even bat an eye when I flick a fly off from between his ears.

The only thing on the trail that could get to be a pain with the whip is if you are riding with buddies and one rides up on your whip side you might accidentally smack them with it…

edited to add, gabz has a good point, if you find you arent using it during the ride, just slide it under the saddle. Thats what I do with mine when mounting up, no reason you couldn’t put it back there during the ride.