Pros: Help me understand different jumping seats you use

[CalJumper]

As I try to improve my riding, I’ve made an effort to study Pros and how they ride, both in warm ups and riding in big jumper classes, Grand Prixs, etc. Needless to say, I’ve learned a lot, but it has also brought up some questions, regarding the style of seat used. Specifically in the Jumpers, I’m referring to a fast flowing forward seat and the heavier upright 3pt seat that different riders use on approach to a jump.

So I have a question for the upper level Pros out there. Besides adapting to the needs of a specific horse, sitting to balance, etc, do you generally subscribe to or believe in one seat over the other? I’ve observed that many riders are fairly consistent with which seat they use across multiple horses.

The more forward seat seems to correspond with the American forward seat system, and the other (pardon my ignorance if I’m wrong) seems more of a European/Classical seat.

How did you “choose” which seat you primarily use? Is it what you were taught? What you are comfortable with? How you feel most horses go best?

Thanks for your input!

ETA: I want to be clear that I’m not looking to start a better/worse seat war. I’ve seen both seats used beautifully, and both taught well. Just always looking for info.

[weixiao]

I popped into a horse show the other day with a young mare to play around with and was actually chatting with my old coach (through GP) about this topic.

He and I both prefer a lighter seat, closer to what is consider the American seat. We are nearly the same height (I am very tall) and we are of comparable weight and physique/build. He and I could always ride very similarly style wise and the “moves” that worked for him often worked for me because when he weighted a stirrup, or closed his hip angle, or did other things and I did them, the resulting feel and response was practically the same. This initially came up because he was saying how he often tells his clients to look for someone else to emulate because they are much shorter than he is and the position that works for him isn’t going to work as well for someone without the same length. We also discussed Margie vs. someone taller like CK or Charlie and how purely by size what seat works for them is going to be very different.

All of that said, my personal preference and “go to” is a much lighter seat. I have had horses that went much better in a deeper seat and I rode accordingly, but I’ve found that most horses I ride can adjust to a lighter seat and be quite happy going that way and I can just touch the tack when needed. For my build and way of riding, that’s the balance that works best for me and I’m most comfortable with.

For the record though, most of my trainers once I reached the 1.45m+ level rode with a lighter seat themselves, so it may be nurture vs nature, but I like it!

[CalJumper]

Thanks for the reply weixiao. I also prefer the lighter seat currently, I have played with them both and find that I have better balance and the horse moves more freely when I am in a lighter seat. That being said, I also must admit that my 3pt technique needs work as I have a tendency to “sit” too much and it feels like I am locking up the horses movement. I know I need to sink, not sit, but it’s a work in progress.

Any other opinions out there?

[doublesstable]

Okay not a Pro or Trainer - - - I wanted to say I really liked what weixiao said and how it was written.

I rode a lot as a kid in the 70’s and 80’s with 99% of the horses coming off the track I developed a very light seat and used a lot of knee. Riding later in life had trainers help me rid myself of the pinched knee, protective riding style and not sitting the canter… trainers have said to me “You must have ridden a lot of hot horses.” LOL. Currently on one of my horses because he hasn’t given me that pocket to sit in “YET” he’s young… I am finding myself in between a two point/half seat and a sitting seat… and I am working to correct that now.

Again I am NOT a trainer but felt compelled to think about this now… and maybe age, way horse goes and level have a lot to do with it.??

And I have watched a few George Morris clinics and he seemed to want the rider to get off the horses backs more.

Edited to add - thinking about the question who you want to emulate… I have always liked Mclain Wards riding - but since I am female I watched Georgina Bloomberg ride at the Masters and she sure is amazing…

[Pembroke]

Not a pro rider here (have jumped up to 120cm at shows), but European. So, here’s my two cents.

I have taken lessons from the guy who gives Master class/rank exams in Germany. He’s awesome. And he says that as a beginner/not a pro rider, the deeper seat or sitting in the saddle while jumping, is better. Why? Because most people can’t control a horse so well in the lighter seat that they can while in the saddle.

For me, it’s about security. I feel more secure while in the saddle, so while between jumps when there is more time, I keep a lighter seat, and before the jump sit in. If the horse should do something funny and not jump, I’ll be able to stay in the saddle and guide/control him/her better.

[weixiao]

[QUOTE=CalJumper;7794045]
Thanks for the reply weixiao. I also prefer the lighter seat currently, I have played with them both and find that I have better balance and the horse moves more freely when I am in a lighter seat. That being said, I also must admit that my 3pt technique needs work as I have a tendency to “sit” too much and it feels like I am locking up the horses movement. I know I need to sink, not sit, but it’s a work in progress.

Any other opinions out there?[/QUOTE]
My first introduction was to a lighter seat. Then, when I was first doing the jr jumpers I was taught to sit. When I then switched back to a lighter seat I had this problem in the moments on course when I did want to sit. It took some adjusting to relearn and get used to the feeling! My coach wouldn’t tell me to sit though, he would say “touch the tack” and for me those words/visual helped me a lot!

Edited to add to my first post on this thread:

I think it is important to understand the different balances that are there even within a lighter seat or touching the tack. You have to play around in the tack on the flat and find which balance becomes a driving seat and which balance when you sit shuts the stride down entirely, and which balance just shifts them back onto their hocks and the same applies for a light seat. I’ve found that, with my height, it comes down to pretty small changes in my hip and knee angle. Just like your horse should have different canters, you should be able to use all those “seats” and know when you need them. I like my “default” to be a light seat that I can go to something else out of, but I think the same applies if you use a deeper seat as a “default”.

Also, I’m not a pro or a trainer (other than of my own horses) but I just wanted to share the knowledge I acquired from a lot of great pros during my “career”.

[supershorty628]

Not a pro either, although I used to be, and I showed in a grand total of one amateur class this year (as opposed to the multitude of open classes)…

I learned to jump in a deeper seat, and as such, that’s what I’ve always been more comfortable with. The super light seat that hunter riders use is something I can do, but I prefer not to if I have the option. On my mare, I usually sit going around, although a lot of the time, I’m in a grey area where I’m neither sitting nor totally light.

I wouldn’t say that I use exclusively one seat or the other; I use a lot of different variations because I use my seat for different purposes: driving if I’m on one that needs it, or half-halting, etc.

[doublesstable]

[QUOTE=supershorty628;7795212]
Not a pro either, although I used to be, and I showed in a grand total of one amateur class this year (as opposed to the multitude of open classes)…

I learned to jump in a deeper seat, and as such, that’s what I’ve always been more comfortable with. The super light seat that hunter riders use is something I can do, but I prefer not to if I have the option. On my mare, I usually sit going around, although a lot of the time, I’m in a grey area where I’m neither sitting nor totally light.

I wouldn’t say that I use exclusively one seat or the other; I use a lot of different variations because I use my seat for different purposes: driving if I’m on one that needs it, or half-halting, etc.[/QUOTE]

I find this thread very timely since I am dealing with this in my riding currently.

I pulled your post SS because you brought up something about the Hunters having a lighter seat which I never really thought about.

I rode at a Hunter barn for several years and my light seat and a lot of two point was never scoffed at. Now at a barn that does a lot of equitation and jumpers I am being asked to use my sitting seat much more. And really working on my position and relaxing through my body. I watch my trainer and she can ride hunters, eq, and jumpers beautifully and more importantly effectively.

Adding to the discussion depends on what your are riding, what you are asking your horse, what the horses level is, how high the horse is jumping etc.

I would guess the more you can use and feel to use different seat positions as you ask your horse to open stride, lengthen, shorten, balance etc. those seats are necessary.

I do see when jumper riders will use a deep seat and it looks like they are balancing and collecting the horse for the large approaching jump. ??

[Dewey]

“I’d like to see all our riders learn to alternate comfortably between a full seat at the canter/gallop (with no roiling or posting) and the half-seat (the so-called ‘two-point position’), and then ease into the full seat during the last few strides of every approach. Reason: Most riders have a mediocre eye for distance if they ride the whole approach in two-point, where, furthermore, they get little feedback and have little influence. All the really good riders I watch are invariably fully seated before their horses are ready to leave the ground, because this lets them ‘see’ where they are, feel what the horse is doing, and do something about it if necessary. I really believe that most riders’ ‘eye for distance’ is in the seat of their pants!” --William Steinkraus

See more at: http://www.equisearch.com/article/eqsteinkra671#sthash.QDuZaIhy.dpuf

[lachelle]

[QUOTE=Dewey;7795669]
“I’d like to see all our riders learn to alternate comfortably between a full seat at the canter/gallop (with no roiling or posting) and the half-seat (the so-called ‘two-point position’), and then ease into the full seat during the last few strides of every approach. Reason: Most riders have a mediocre eye for distance if they ride the whole approach in two-point, where, furthermore, they get little feedback and have little influence. All the really good riders I watch are invariably fully seated before their horses are ready to leave the ground, because this lets them ‘see’ where they are, feel what the horse is doing, and do something about it if necessary. I really believe that most riders’ ‘eye for distance’ is in the seat of their pants!” --William Steinkraus[/QUOTE]

Oh my god I wish I would have read this quote like 5 years ago… My coach has been telling me to sit back with my shoulders for the last 2 years. I put my shoulders back but still stayed in a half-seat up to the jumps. I rode with another trainer earlier this year who told me to “SIT MY A** IN THE SADDLE” before the jump. Amazing! I can find/feel/see a distance!

Sorry, OP, not a pro…just wanted to thank Dewey for the great quote!

[Dewey]

^ You’re quite welcome. Steinkraus is one of my heroes, and he is an unusually articulate spokesman for the equestrian art.

As for his comments about seat, I love the way he expresses this, but that doesn’t mean I can do it. :winkgrin:

[Caravale]

Also not a pro (yet) but I am coached by a rider who is ranked one of the top in the world, and we discuss use of seat often.

My own preferences, more than helped along by said rider’s assistance, tend to depend on horse but since we are usually going for the lighter and more reactive types, one uses three point/driving seat when one wants a forward reaction. Three point generally used to a lesser effect around turns, particularly rollbacks, in order to maintain impulsion and keep better balance and keep the horse in front of the leg. Two point/half seat/whatever you want to call it (butt out of saddle, anyway) is when you have the proper amount of impulsion and just want to carry or lightly balance, particularly on the more sensitive and blooded types. In short, if you want speed/forward/need more push you sit and use your legs, and if you want to just carry rhythm or balance the horse up you get off his back and use aids accordingly. This can all change in the blink of an eye and simply lifting one’s butt out of one’s saddle and not actually reaching a true two point can provide the same result. SuperShorty mentioned the use of seat that’s somewhere between light and soft hunter seat and sitting deeply in your saddle and I would say that’s where we are a significant percentage of the time.

I personally sit the last several strides before the jump, usually at least four strides out depending on what I see, and use it to balance and maintain impulsion. It’s important to note you need to be using your leg more than your seat here; use of deep driving seat, unless you’re in trouble, can really get them hollow and scrambling before the fence.

[Lusoluv]

In the late 90s I evented a couple years, then got into dressage big time and recently started schooling my upper level dressage horse over small fences (2’) to improve his canter. I’m not a brave rider. I tend to sit more so I have more influence over speed and security to the fences. For the little fences I’m doing I try to remember a few things:

-Unless you’re jumping over 3’3", there’s no need to get out of the tack more than if you were posting a trot. Most people fold too much and throw off the horse’s balance at the worst moment.
-The more you use your seat, the less you pull and ‘argue’ via the reins. This also causes most problems right before a fence. You commonly see riders wrestling with the reins, distracting the horse from his impulsion and tempo upon approach.
-Keep your chest and eyes up. Letting your upper body’s weight fall down into your elbows helps balance the horse - your lower body’s weight falling down into your heels helps balance you.

If I can do these things, I have no problem jumping my horse and some others at the barn. Though I never jumped a lot as a young adult and haven’t jumped in over 10 years, we are pretty handy and maintain a great rhythm around the ring.