Proud cut?

[omare]

In the old days it referenced a horse that perhaps for some reason or another still had stallion characteristics after being gelded. Is it a real condition and, if so, how does one manage it?

I have a horse cut late (but never bred), gelded two years ago, who is a real pain in turnout situations. As a young horse he was turned out in a herd till two so he has had some herd socialization.

When turned out with two other geldings he spends 80-90 percent of his time engaging in horse play–usually they turn away bored and he has to trot a half circle to face them again and try to engage again–he ends up sweating and they have not bothered to break a sweat as he is doing all the trotting. He also tends to not let the little herd graze so I bring him in after a while so they have peace. He also will bugle to the mares when first turned out. He does not drop down and I have not turned him out with mares. I suspect if I had a mean kicker/biter to turn him out with he might stop-- for 10 minutes.

So could he be proud cut and if so how do you manage them. I had tried a muzzle on him but 1) he really is not doing damage (i just thought it might help if he could only be bitten and not nip back- to disarm him, 2) it was so hot I thought it was an awful time of the year to try it, 3) at least one of the geldings ran away from him as he looked like an alien so it only added to the problems.
Any suggestions appreciated. TIA

[Mosey_2003]

I’m pretty sure proud cut means there is still some tissue producing testosterone. You could have his blood tested, I think they can treat with hormones.

[omare]

Thanks–I had not thought of that–at least I would know whether it is a hormonal or behavioral issue.

[Foxglove]

I stopped hauling my buddy’s horse because he was so stud-y. He was supposed to be a gelding but the second he got in the trailer (with my gelding) he sprayed urine everywhere and snorted and pawed and generally made a nuisance of himself. She asked me to haul him backwards in my straight load to see if that would work (he’d started bending the back doors by sitting on them, trying to get around the divider. I refused. After he kicked at me while she was grooming him tied to the side of the trailer, I refused to haul him at all. And he smelled awful --just standing still, he had a bad smell about him. I suggested she have his blood checked, but she donated him to a handicapped riding program where he didn’t last, and was soon passed along to an instructor who as far as I know, still has him. Each to their own. Glad he found the right home. He was the only proud cut horse I ever saw personally, if that’s what it was.

Foxglove

[Lady_Eboshi]

Proud-cut is an old-timey horsemen’s term for a botched job of gelding–usually involving a retained portion of the epididymus, which can indeed continue producing a certain amount of testosterone.

Depending on the horse, it can make him studdy and obnoxious to handle, or merely amorous around mares in season and very, VERY brilliant in the show ring as my great old guy was. I’d describe him as having a lot of “swagger,” enough to catch the judge’s eye in the dressage but not enough to be truly annoying.

Lady who bred him confirmed that the vet wasn’t on his best game that day, and was trying to run from colt to colt to do a bunch of them before they all woke up! Shades of Dr. Pol, and from that same part of the world. And a long time ago . . . :winkgrin:

[Ghazzu]

The epididymis does not produce testosterone.

Testosterone is produced by the interstitial cells of the testis.

“Proud cut” horses are either crypts where the retained testis was not removed, horses which have no appreciable level of testosterone, but retain behaviors characteristic of stallions,or, rarely, produce significant amounts of testosterone from the adrenals or or ectopic tissue.

[omare]

He was sent to a vet clinic to be gelded…but sounds like it may be worth testing him to see if there are other reasons he has higher levels?

If it is not hormonal how do you control the pesky pain in the neck stupid constant “play”? I am assuming putting him in with a non-nonsense “shark” horse that will nail him if he gets too annoying might be the best approach? I have one mean older horse–the type that leaves large lumps when he bites/torpedeos with his teeth. Might be a better pasture mate.

[Guilherme]

Stallion behavior is instinctive, not hormonal. The hormones provide the “fuel” and the ability to reproduce but if you’ve got a “studly” stallion then you’ll likely have a “studly” gelding.

We’ve cut a couple of older breeding studs and they were excellent geldings that could be turned out in a mixed herd. They were also very easy to handle stallions.

Maybe there is a physical issue and maybe it’s an issue of temperament. Check for the physical first 'cause that’s easy. Dealing with the second will mean some serious training.

G.

[findeight]

Run a blood test for hormone levels. It’s not expensive.

Had a vet who recently retired after over 30 years in practice (and two shoulder surgeries, broken ribs and fingers and a couple of concussions courtesy of uncooperative patient and their less then helpful owners). He said of all the hormone tests he’d run, probably hundreds, he only had two positives. The rest were learned behavior in those cut as mature adults and/or improper handling and training.

Ive only seen one that was confirmed in over 40 years, that one was a PITA, mounted anything he was turned out with, pawed, screamed…would have helped if somebody had put a set of manners on him, behaved worse then any intact stud ever did.

Can be corrected by horsey boot camp training, careful turn out arrangements and things like Depo and Regumate, hopefully temporarily just to break the pattern. Of course additional surgery to correct the physical cause if identified.

[Jealoushe]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;8285916]
Stallion behavior is instinctive, not hormonal. The hormones provide the “fuel” and the ability to reproduce but if you’ve got a “studly” stallion then you’ll likely have a “studly” gelding.

We’ve cut a couple of older breeding studs and they were excellent geldings that could be turned out in a mixed herd. They were also very easy to handle stallions.

Maybe there is a physical issue and maybe it’s an issue of temperament. Check for the physical first 'cause that’s easy. Dealing with the second will mean some serious training.

G.[/QUOTE]

I had a cryptorchid, once he was gelded (surgery under general anesthetic), he was not studdy AT ALL. He was an absolute nightmare before his surgery. He had to be padlocked into a stall like a maximum security prison. A mare passing would set him off, and he routinely mounted anything he could, and bit the nose off a few horses.

Now he is the quietest sweetest guy ever! I had his blood tested to determine if there were indeed still testes present, his testosterone was higher than a breeding stallion. Poor guy.

[omare]

I will pull the blood-- I am not sure how turn out is a “training” issue? He is not a sweet but he is fine on the ground and in the barn. He is not actually mean in the field–he is just a pain–so persistant at being a pain at trying to engage the other geldings–until he is hot and sweaty–it seems-OCDish in the way stallions can be so focused on something to their detriment–which made me at first think maybe hormonal. At least I can rule that out!

[findeight]

In your case it’s not a training issue, don’t take that personally. But it’s best to include things in a reply that generally may be part of a problem for the larger audience of unknown experience levels that reads these threads looking for advice.

Horses that are allowed to act like bullies are often mistaken for proud cut by those who don’t know being a bully is not really stud behavior, just bad behavior because they can get away with it.

[MR1]

(haven’t read all the other replies)
I believe my gelding was proud cut (or in some way not 100% gelded). We didn’t realize it until I’d had him fora few years. He was VERY mellow in all other regards.
However, two incidents occurred which I’ll never forget:

• there was a fire at the nextdoor barn, putting the stalled horses at risk, so they were turned out in our very large sand arena - my gelding turned into a stallion in moments, separated all the mares, and guarded them at one end of the arena - letting the other dominate male (a very young gelding) keep the “left overs” (gelding)
• after a few times without incident turned out with my friend’s gelding, one day my boy chased the other horse relentlessy around the arena until the horse horse nearly jumped out - took both of us to get them apart

It was at that point that I decided he should not, WOULD NOT ever be in turn-out or pasture with other horses. There was something inside that just “clicked on” in a herd situation and he HAD to be boss. In all other situations (stall, under saddle, trailer) he was a perfect gentleman.

Vet’s only thought was that he was proud cut. We never tested, since it was an easy solution, but I never put him with other horses because I knew the risk - and wasn’t willing to risk injury to another horse should my gelding get aggressive again.

He was absolutely wonderful in every other way & a true gentleman undersaddle. I miss him dearly, but knew his limits.

Food for thought.

[Hermein]

I suspect that a rescue I have is somehow not quite gelded enough, and my mares are sure of it. He did display stallion-like behavior when he first came–no longer, that I’ve seen, but he does have a lot of “presence”-- sort of like you’d notice if you saw Brad Pitt walking down your street.

OTOH, I have another gelding (whom I know was gelded by a professional) who, when I first let him mingle with my mixed herd, mounted all the mares who’d put up with it.