Slight tangent, but to take off on HayHay—
Everyone glossed over the fact that no one could do a proper halt transition on the bit at the GM clinic this past Jan. I was horrified. wow, they can jump but what else can they do? can they really ride on the flat? Its like they could only do what they were trained for, nothing outside that norm. TALENTED? sure, of course. But can they solve real problems?
They need a lesson with Allison Springer 
I agree that the dressage fundamentals are sorely lacking in h/j land in general, but in the excellent programs, they are still there (probably why the programs are excellent). I was lucky enough to find several trainers who emphasize dressage, some even to the point that their jumpers were schooling PSG in the double bridle. I’ve seen programs where every day the assistant trainer got on and did lengthenings, shortenings, lateral work, and oodles of counter canter.
I learned my method of teaching changes from a respected R judge with a high caliber program, and whenever I post it on the dressage forum someone inevitably says that is what their big name European dressage clinician just said. So the good programs definitely know their flatwork, but again, that is probably why they are the good programs.
That said, I’ve also ridden in $400 h/j clinics where nothing was broke. No pace control, half halts non existant, can’t canter a 20m circle, no brakes, wtffff? It’s nice that these people were spending $400 trying to improve but it would have been nicer if the clinician had explained how to introduce the horse to half halting to address the mayhem in the arena.
In the end the quality of the flatwork is often what seems to separate the men from the boys, so people who find themselves frustrated in hunterland would be wise to seek out a dressage specialist to help round out their foundation.
I spent much of the 1970’s working as a groom and working student for Victor and (while she was still there) Holly Hugo-Vidal. I can safely say that I NEVER remember a single one of their top junior or amateur riders doing anything but being handed a groomed, tacked, hoof polished horse and handing us back a horse to cool out and put away. They were nice kids, they said please and thank you, but they would have had absolutely no clue how to take care of their horses. I, personally, have no idea what KMP is talking about, the ‘good old days’ were brutal on horses and the evolution in footing, vet care, course design, jump design and pretty much everything related to the sport is, thank goodness!, light years ahead of what went on in those years. These days using baling twine as a noseband on a difficult horse would be hard to get away with (yes, I iced that horse for 3 days). I clearly remember the horses that just ‘disappeared’ in the night or the lovely gelding that was put down after too many jump lessons for one junior rider to get ready for Finals without wearing out her good horse. I like to think that folks like GHM and KMP have learned and grown over the years and become the kind of horsemen they appear to be, but I saw a lot in the 70’s and early 80’s that was not ok. I cannot imagine some of the things I saw in the top barns back in those days happening in the top barns I have put my more talented horses in in recent years. The sport may not be where it needs to be but lets be real about what it was!
You don’t need a “dressage specialist,” just a good horseman who knows flatwork.
Are people not reading my posts? Or the thread?
Upthread people were mentioning that the flatwork education provided by the trainers they were working with wasn’t as good as, it turns out, they would have liked.
So I replied, from personal experience, that there are h/j programs out there that do it well, but if you find yourself frustrated, ie, if you don’t think what’s available from your current, non specialist, options is cutting the mustard, then ot would be smart to take a few lessons from a dressage specialist.
What are you arguing with, exactly?
And someone else on here, after I wrote a whole post that there ARE avenues to get a great riding and horsemanship education in this country, and there ARE people -on this thread, even!- who have clearly and demonstrably figured that out and are sharing how they do it, but the pros that are b*tching but who only want to cater to the mega money clients, and the amateurs who complain aren’t interested in that particular riding lifestyle, …
after that post someone carefully explains to that plenty of amateurs do care about horsemanship etc etc.
Right, I mentioned them …but those aren’t the ones who complain, are they?
It would be nice if people would read what I actually said before leaping at the opportunity to argue with it.
Listen to Joe Fargis’s acceptance speech when he won the Pegasus award.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlOEeYzVia8
Then think about people who ride to show, for the social aspects and for the competition. Who don’t have time to become horsemen/horsewomen. Who don’t have time to learn about horse management, care and training principles. Who don’t have time to spend with horses except when they are riding. For whom horses are an escape and not life partners. Who buy and sell horses for competition success. Aren’t horses to those folks means to an end and not an end in themselves?
There was a post removed from a groom in the 70s that pretty much summed up much. Still though,the statement " horse is first" …often used as needed. must have best of best, best brand… best footing… best trailering… best barn etc… forever homes… best training, lol dressage vs H/J etc. My other favorite was “people must sacrifice”. Uhuh.
I’m sorry. I think the true golden era of horse stemmed from cavalry and cavalry wasn’t all that kind. but had rules. When many types of people had to learn how to ride. The horse showing era is a myth of very rich people pretending they are something that no one may surpass since they are so groomed with special training. We’ll just pretend “the irish boys” are something exotic.The myth of “the horse first” has taken on a new life in branding.
And heaven forbid that carriage horses anywhere be viewed as anything other than slumdogs for the pagans.
Wow touchy. Again, you don’t need a “dressage specialist” to get good flatwork training on a horse. I’ve ridden multiple disciplines and gotten some of the best flatwork training from trainers who specialize in Western disciplines. Good flatwork is good flatwork, no matter what the discipline or type of saddle.
And if you’re frustrated with your current training program, maybe you need another trainer who understands that the foundation of everything (not just h/j) is good flatwork.
There are two different ways of meaning when one says, “The horse is first.” Any person who works with tools knows that they will last much longer and work much better if they receive proper care. It really doesn’t matter who provides the care as long as the tool is cleaned and the oil is changed, the grease fittings get filled with grease, and the filters are regularly changed, the cutting blades are kept sharp, etc., etc.
But horses are sentient beings who have mental as well as physical needs. They need to have those mental needs recognized and given proper care in their interactions with humans. All of things that were mentioned in the previous post relate to their physical needs. It takes just as much time and effort to learn to deal with their minds as it does to deal with their bodies. And, IMO, that is what’s wrong with riding as a “hop on, ride, show” activity. It’s the English equivalent of “Ride 'em hard and put them up wet.” The horse is being used just as if it were an automobile or garden tool.
This is true of most living things. There are a thousand slices as to what is wrong and what is right in supporting living things. And if there is an irony to all of this, it is that if showing is hop on, ride, show that is being complained about, is it is simply following the origin of H/J, horse showing in the US. The US is different in its approach than other countries/Europe and there is a source.
I can see where this could happen, even if the rider is providing all the care. My ex-cavalry officer trainer, who has worked for a number of European Olympians, and is a phenomenal trainer will tell you he doesn’t particularly like horses. They work together like co-workers, each performing their job, and then they go their separate ways.
I love my horses to distraction, and I love my good rider’s horses like they are my own. I love them after they’re gone. I just stalked and messaged a South Korean rider last night since one of our horses was pretty recently resold and shipped to South Korea. And I’m a stalker, and I love this horse. Although my message did say that I’m not a stalker…clearly a lie. But I know a lot of grooms who love, love, love “their” horses. And the horses, as far as I can tell, generally love them back. I do believe the horses who are happiest and have the best relationships with their people are the most successful. But I don’t necessarily think that the rider is the one or the only one to create a horse’s happiness and willingness to work. We’re all a team.
I listened to the podcast again last night, and the more I hear it, the more I think Katie’s message is just confused and poorly delivered. For example, her point that the animal rights movement needing to not be allowed to dictate the use of horses in sport I agree with. That’s a whole long ranting thread of its own. But the way she says it, it’s wrapped around the discussion of a zero tolerance policy on abuse and/or blood which almost makes her sound like she’s okay with spurring a horse until it bleeds. She does say that horses are large animals that needs to be “trained,” and sometimes that’s not through hugs and kisses. Fine. But the way she delivers it, it comes off as sour grapes with the FEI being in the animal rights activists’ pocket, and that horse trainers aren’t allowed to train because horses have to be treated delicately. Afterwards she jumps immediately back into rants about money and the wealthy people that are ruining the sport…making it sound like somehow the money is also the reason the animal rights people are dictating what we’re doing.
She leaps from point to point and it’s confusing at best.
So…all that to say I think perhaps she had good intentions, but either didn’t think about the message and how to precisely deliver it, or maybe just didn’t care. Because I’m hearing and seeing how the discussion has started a firestorm all over the internet, and it’s no mystery why, with a message that is that all over the place.
Late to this party, so sorry if I’m a few pages behind in the discussion.
Prudent’s remarks were quite unvarnished and, by her own admission, she doesn’t have a productive solution to the current set of problems she outlines.
Where I think folks in this thread started to go wrong (at least on page one) was to suggest that giving ammies “who only have enough money to show at 2’6” was “elitist.” Look, calling someone elitist is quite an accusation in the purportedly class-free U S of A. We don’t take kindly to people who say you are born with it or you are SOL and that’s the way it goes.
But! There are lots of things about horsing that are really NOT elitist at all.
Jumping bigger than 2’6" is, quite frankly, one of them. Doing that takes some instruction, some practice, mental toughness and, maybe, some physical toughness. But riding is a sport– it involves risk and skill. If you don’t like those aspects of riding horses, it seems to me that you don’t really want to participate in the actual sport.
And, as Prudent points out, you used to not be able to got to a horse show at all until you jumped 3’6". By the time I was a kid, that height was 3’ at the rated shows. You could jump lower (but also lots higher) at schooling shows back then. So if you wanted to show, you had to learn to ride well enough to navigate a course of one of these sizes.
I agree that the standards of performance (particularly in the hunter ring) and the cost of the rare horse who can do the job of the A/O hunter or Regular Working Hunter competitively is cost-prohibitive for all but the 1%. I will be less bothered if y’all call this state of affairs “elitist.”
But if you don’t need to jump that 4’ course in Wellington or at Devon, I promise you, you can still learn to ride that well. Buck the “elitist” system and learn to ride well and care for horses well, rich or poor. You can still do that in America.
Okay here is coming from myself, a 17 year old middle class Junior. No matter how much money you have, you can’t buy talent or practice. Even if you are rich it still takes an incredible amount of hard work, athleticism, and dedication to successfully show. What matters is passion. You can be the richest person in the world but you aren’t going to make it to that podium with passion. To me passion equates honor, I don’t care how much money you have if have great passion for riding and a love for horses you have earned my respect.
I’ve had to work for a lot of what I’ve got in the horse world, I’ve bought my own saddles, I keep my horses at home, my family knew nothing about horses when I started, I’ve come back from an extremely serious injury, I helped buy all my horses. BUT I know that if I keep doing what I can everyday than I will accomplish some concrete goals.
Indeed, my parents have backed me financially, a fact I am neither ashamed or proud of, but I am grateful. I do wonder why I was born into the place and background that I was-but I don’t let it bother me. If I can’t ride than I can read and learn more. If I can’t run than I’ll walk, but I’m going to keep doing what I can. Yes, my nerves get in the way sometimes but if I keep working hard I know I’ll get there eventually. The opportunities placed in my life may or may not equate with my family’s income. I can afford to keep my horse at home-but I can’t afford to buy a high caliber horse, I can afford to go a few A shows a year-but can’t afford to be gone 3-4 times a month, I can afford to higher a braider and stall cleaner-but I don’t hire a groom. So far in my life I’ve only made it to one A rated show, for so many different reasons, my horse wasn’t ready, I wasn’t ready, the school horse was lame, I was out of town, but I have had the chance to do a lot of IEA. Personally I take comfort in the fact that I believe that each one of our lives is just as important to God, as another. Whether you are rich or born in the slums without a crumb of food, you are each worthy of love and hope.
The way I look at it is that–it is what it is–. It’s time to cut the Socialist crap, and get to work. You better believe that if I had been born in poverty as a minority (I am in fact considered a minority but you’d never know it)-but with this passion in my heart-I’d be doing what I could, whether it be trying to gain access to books or perhaps the rare chance to ride a horse, but I would never give up trying. If you have passion nothing stops you.
The sport is ever-evolving! McClain hit it on the nose when he discussed the technicality of todays courses. I believe that there has to be balance in our opinions however. Instead of whining of rich and poor, whining about how lazy todays kids are, whining about amateurs, whining about better horses, let’s whine about the welfare of our animal, lets not talk about how amateurs or kids are the problem but how a lack of respect of the animal and a lack of passion are the problem. Let’s all together keep doing what we can to improve our sport in the way that we each know how!
There are always the exceptions … however we feed the idea that it is possible to too readily without saying these kids are the exception and not the rule. And kids who are passionate and work incredibly hard and are really talented riders get lost and disillusioned. I think its a cruelty - perhaps not intentional - to foster a dream which is likely not achievable.
Thanks @GoneAway, you did a great job of summarizing the information in the podcast. The message was all over the place. If the sport gets to be all about SHOWING, and not RIDING, then we are in trouble. And thanks to the folks who identified the similar situation in running - informative!
Fortunately, despite all the blah-blah, we do have fantastic riders today at the upper levels, and more that she did not name (Aaron Vale, Rich Fellers, Todd Minikus, Richard Spooner - just a few examples). And there is a pipeline of younger riders. We do not need thousands, like @greyfordays pointed out. We do need a pipeline of younger riders who want to RIDE. A pipeline of thousands of riders who can’t ride well is not useful for Katie’s point, international competition. I think there are enough riders in the pipeline. Could there be more? Maybe…
I am curious myself when I go to shows and overhear the younger riders in the stands. Too often, they seem to be more interested in who has new Dubarry’s and the latest new jacket, than in watching the action and learning.
I don’t think this is at all about money. This is an expensive sport, whether you are at shows to dress up and have fun, or you are there to learn and compete: it’s the same (BIG) ticket. If trainers are directing clients, young and old, in such a way to focus on dress up and social stuff, then that’s a shame, IMHO, since the fun is in the sport, and working as a partner with your animal.
This was part of Denny Emerson’s response to this hullabaloo, that you can actually become a very good rider and not show.
Katie certainly went in several directions to create such diverse remarks on this thread.
Part of the conversation that is missing is a point of view from a horse show board member. Serving on a few horse organization boards for many years I understand the issues they face to keep people attending shows. The local schooling shows are a thing of the past for good reason. They don’t make money anymore. Attend a horse show organization board meeting and see the challenges they face to keep people attending and running in the green.
What you are seeing today is a big box approach because it works for many. Not only for the horse show organizations but the trainers and clients alike.
There is conversation about the lower level riders should not be at the A shows. The “A” shows, if I compete in 2’6" or 2’9" they are NON-RATED divisions and the same show they will have B and C rated sections as well.
Katie’s remarks about the “fearful and talent-less amateur” came across as unprofessional and arrogant. Clearly not just to me after reading 10 pages of this thread. Mclain’s response was articulate and professional which I would love to have seen from Katie as well. He’s a class act.
For anyone to get on a 1200 lb + animal and jump around a course are not fearful or talent-less.
I have seen people pay a lot of money for an amazing horse that knows his job and far exceeds the abilities of the average horse. It’s like competing in an Autocross in a Volkswagen bus versus in a Ferrari. Who has the better chance? The one in the Ferrari. It still has to be driven and the driver still has to have the guts to get behind the wheel knowing full well they could get hurt or killed. Yes many should probably learn to drive the Volkswagen bus before getting behind the wheel of that Ferrari. I don’t have a problem if someone has the means to get that Ferrari first, but that’s just me and really it’s none of my business anyway.
I understand Katie’s concern of riders just learning to “Horse Show”. I heard in a clinic I was in last week - “You are in the ring for a lesson or clinic for schooling, you are not in the show ring.” Her teaching was priceless and attention to detail was impeccable. She is an icon of the horse world and hope the trainers of today will soak up this type of ideology and share their knowledge. This in hopes could continue to build these top riders that know how to do more than horse show.
I quite honestly agree with a lot of what she’s saying. We are seeing these very capable and tough Irish kids who can ride absolutely anything take our lunch money.
Well if all it took was money, Athina Onassis, Jennifer Gates, and Eve Jobs would be the top three riders in the world. Obviously it takes more than just money. But you can’t get to the 5* level without it - whether you are rich on your own or you have very wealthy sponsors. It is an elite sport. It always has been and it always will.
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