Prudent Podcast

[supershorty628]

@vineyridge

We live in a world of entitled snowflakes who have never been punished for their actions or for their inactions. I’d like to know why the toughness that comes from the marine/cavalry way is not useful in elite sports where defeat is much more common than winning. Learning to lose and learning from loss is far more valuable than winning because someone bought you a faster car/horse.

Yeah, you’re right. Kids these days…

I thought Mclain’s response to Katie’s thoughts was classy, accurate, and well-thought out. Yeah, we get it, back in the day, everything was 5 times harder and everyone rode 10x better. Whatever. That’s not the reality of now. People like Ms. Prudent need to realize that not everyone has the desire to be on the Team, but that doesn’t mean those people are less capable as horsemen. Does it really matter if someone jumps 2’6" or 1.60m at the end of the day? How are their horses cared for? Isn’t that what’s most important?

I’ve never understood this trend of professionals who like to sling the lower-level riders under the bus and call them things like “talentless amateurs.” Who do they think is funding the sport? My 1 horse in the grand prix? No, it’s the 30 people in the 1 meter class, the 30 people in the 1.10m, etc. There was a dressage rider a few years ago who did something similar. I don’t get it. Not everyone wants to ride at the tippy top level.

[ladyj79]

@supershorty628

Yeah, you’re right. Kids these days…

That made me cry tears of comedy and rage :lol::lol::lol:

[ynl063w]

@IPEsq

That was your word, not mine.

The qualification I meant was the desire/ability to show in rated divisions. I’m not saying there is not a place for unrated divisions, just to solve some of the issues being discussed, it might help to have those at more financially accessible shows, which will also mean disincentivizing the need to show in lower level classes at an A show.

This entire discussion is about what “everyone” in the horse show world is doing at this point in time. If you think the right answer for the good of the sport is to maintain the status quo and MYOB, then you are free to do that. The personal commentary is not necessary. What if I still owned my 4’ hunter? Then my opinion would be more valid?

Yes, it was my word, and the word used before and after me. And it’s not an appropriate word for the discussion, for the reasons I stated. You bring up yet again the “more financially accessible shows” without acknowledging the fact that those shows don’t exist in many areas of the country.

If you still had your 4’ hunter I would tell you the same thing: stop wasting your time and energy worrying about what others are doing and focus on improving yourself and your horse.

[ladyj79]

@ynl063w

If you still had your 4’ hunter I would tell you the same thing: stop wasting your time and energy worrying about what others are doing and focus on improving yourself and your horse.

:yes::yes::yes:

What my most recent angry abusive ex-cavalry officer says here is

Ride your horse. That will make you happy. Then you won’t have time to worry what other people are doing.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

@ladyj79

I trained with several old cavalry officers. It was fine for me, but not everyone thrives in that environment. And given that there aren’t a lot of old school cavalry guys around, what we are really talking about is just being a jerk.

Amen. How many mediocre, bad, or downright incompetent trainers are out there who can’t really teach…yet people stay with them because of the misguided mentality that the more they are being abused, the better the trainer must be? That they need to take it to be tough?

I have admittedly had some very difficult teachers in all walks of life (not just riding) whom I admired very much as instructors. But I stayed with difficult, sarcastic teachers because of the quality of the instruction. I tolerated their difficult personalities because it was part of who they were as people, not because I thought it was the sole reason why they were good. I’ve also had exceptional teachers who were very kind and never raised their voices even though they were also very blunt and very honest.

I mean, how many threads on COTH alone have people posted about horrific behavior by their trainers, half-defending indefensible behavior?

[no_sniveling]

Oh, and her son is awful. She should work on him a bit more

I trained with several old cavalry officers. It was fine for me, but not everyone thrives in that environment. And given that there aren’t a lot of old school cavalry guys around, what we are really talking about is just being a jerk.
[/QUOTE]

My trainer was from the last division at Ft Riley, and I wouldn’t wish him on anyone- rider OR horse.
Adam Prudent is well known as a harsh rider- wouldn’t wish him on any horse either.
No matter how much your horse cost, you’re not a timid amateur if you can tackle a 1.6M course…sorry, ain’t buying the general slam there either.
Now if we could just RELAX a tiny bit in the US and let kids have fun on their horses instead of being required to be one of a hundred riders competing in a big eq class, afraid to put a foot wrong, or on some deadly dull hunter loping around yet another boring track, we might recapture some of the joy you can see in the faces of the Irish kids rattling around on their ponies.
There are several more podcasts about horses on the WiSP site, the one with Amanda Derbyshire is spot on - in a much kinder way- of the differences between the US and Europe- worth a listen.

[AffirmedHope]

@supershorty628

Yeah, you’re right. Kids these days…

I bet I’d be able to afford that 1.60 horse if I just stopped eating that damn avocado toast :lol:

[Raymundo]

My kids are riding older, safe horses whose 3’6" days are well behind them, but who still have lots to teach novice riders. Both would like to show, but schooling and local shows are few and far between around here. There is an A series very nearby that includes jumper divisions under 1.00m as well as Short Stirrup classes so we went. The jumper classes were $55 each and the Short Stirrup classes were $50. By the time I checked out on Sunday, I’d spent over $2000 (stalls, feed, braiding, etc.) for what was in effect a schooling show. That was their very first show and will likely be our one and only show this summer as there are no more shows–schooling or otherwise–within a 2 hour drive until school starts.

The girls and the horses did come home better than when they left which was our only goal since it was their first time in the ring in a show. Huge bummer that it was so expensive, but we had the same judges, footing, and jumps as the other divisions, so I do get it. In my perfect world, there would be no braiding for the lower hunters, but the girls are learning to do it themselves so that expense will eventually disappear…

I love Supershorty’s post!

[Raine]

Supershorty for the win! :yes::lol:

[meupatdoes]

@MIKES MCS

I disagree with you. Horse showing has always been all inclusive , at least where I grew up . it only mattered how your rode not what color you were or sexual orientation or your religious persuasion. Did it ever occur to you that many “POC” were just not interested in our sport? I remember being told by a black Trainer on the track in the early 70’s that no self respecting Black mother or father would EVER allow their daughters on the back stretch. While “POC” were not prevalent back then … they were there as riders trainers and grooms , perhaps you just didn’t notice them, maybe they weren’t the BNT or BNR but they were their and still are .

Are you doing that thing where a white man explains to everyone else that systematic racism and disadvantage doesn’t exist, and hasn’t since back when you grew up? Didn’t you grow up in the 60’s?

There’s a lot of white people who don’t intend to be racist, honestly believe they are color blind, and don’t intend to contribute to the problem, but when you assert from your throne of white maleness that black people didn’t participate in the richest, whitest sport ‘back in the day’ just because they “weren’t interested,” you are in fact -intentionally or not-contributing to the problem.

As a white person who grew up quite privileged, it’s not ‘my fault’ that I was handed a better deck of cards than most. It doesn’t make be a bad person. But it IS my responsibility to acknowledge that and recognize that, not deny other people’s experience, and to actively work on making sure I contribute toward solutions rather than perpetuating the problem. I don’t go around saying, “Private plane ownership was all inclusive back when I grew up, but I guess most people just weren’t interested.”

So, at the very least acknowledge that the world today, and the day you grew up in, are not, in fact, “all inclusive” for POC, and do your part to contribute to the solution, rather than obtusely asserting the problem never existed. Work toward making it all inclusive, instead of asserting there’s no work to do because it already is.

[caffeinated]

@vineyridge

We live in a world of entitled snowflakes who have never been punished for their actions or for their inactions. I’d like to know why the toughness that comes from the marine/cavalry way is not useful in elite sports where defeat is much more common than winning. Learning to lose and learning from loss is far more valuable than winning because someone bought you a faster car/horse.

Basic psychology- tearing people down and berating them does not build confidence. You wouldn’t train a horse that way, so why treat a human that way? Or maybe it’s that few trainers can actually be effective with that method or understand the “build up” part.

Learning to lose is certainly a valuable thing, no one is talking about “everyone is a winner!” here. But too many trainers who think they’re just being tough are crossing the line into abuse, because they don’t understand the “building confidence” part of the equation.

I think a trainer or coach using that "old school " methodology white actually being effective and building up rider confidence is few and far between.

[kirbydog]

When an amateur walks into the show ring, the are doing it as their avocation. When a professional does, it is their vocation. Being tough on professionals, new to it or a long time in the business is not only good, it is necessary. But when a 55+ mother of 3, a 40 something business professional, a 14 year old kid who’s been riding for 3 years walk in the ring, they are doing it largely for themselves. ITS NOBODY ELSE’S BUSINESS, AND IT HURTS NO ONE ELSE. They are the ones who give the professionals a reason to exist. These are the people who should be supported and encouraged, not shamed because there is little or no chance of them ever jumping higher then they are currently showing.

Most of us pros bring a wide variety of riders to these big A/AA shows because there is only so much time in our lives. It is hugely convenient for us to be able to do this. It is almost logistically impossible to take one group to the unrated shows, one group to the B/C shows, and some to the AA’s. No one would be happy then, as you couldn’t possibly provide the service that people pay for and expect.

As to that, SO WHAT if somebody who is riding and showing for FUN AND RECREATION hands over the reins to a caring and talented groom after their ride? Many of the adult riders then leave the show grounds to go to work, so they can continue to support the horse, and subsequently, the shows. I am pretty damn sure that none of KMP’s high end clients are doing their own grooming. I read about half of GHM’s book, (had to put it down, because it was so irritating to me) and he admits that he was always a rider and not really a horseman…wishes that he was more educated on that side of the business.

At the end of the day, my novice adult ladies, whom I love, have absolutely no effect on somebody’s GP horse, unless, perhaps, they are financially backing that rider

[hb]

These discussions aren’t just going on in horse sports:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifes…69947#comments

Interesting article on marathon running. The average finishing times for American marathons are longer than ever. The average.

People studying the data have investigated whether the average is down due to more women in races (who generally have slower times). The answer is no, men’s average is slower too. There is a correlation between increased obesity rates in the population and slowing times, but obese people don’t tend to run marathons. Here is the conclusion: [INDENT]
“Average times are slowing because more and more races are emphasizing their social aspects,” Young says. “They seek to attract recreational runners and walkers. Look at the race websites. You can find all sorts of social media links, party details and merchandise for sale, but it’s hard to find the race results.”[/INDENT]

The article goes on to discuss that there are more recreational runners whose goal is simply to complete the marathon, and they aren’t training as hard as they would if their goal was to hit a competitive time

HOWEVER, and this is a big however, the elite runners continue to improve their times. [INDENT]
“While average times are getting slower, American elites have continued to improve. In 1996, the American marathon records stood at 2:10:04 (men) and 2:21:21 (women). Today they are 2:05:38 and 2:19:36.”[/INDENT]

And even though the data show that the slower runners bringing the average down are not affecting the competitive runners’ ability to improve their performance, the first comment on the article sounds like it could be on this thread: [INDENT]
"I trained for and ran a couple of marathons and then half marathons and I was put off buy the attitudes of those who believed they “deserved’ to be there and I did not because I was not a “serious” runner. Go to hell with them, and the whole damn sport as far as I am concerned.”[/INDENT]

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

Thank you for posting that article @hb! I mentioned running in my earlier post. It’s definitely not perfectly analogous, because I think in most races, there is still the emphasis on cheering on even those who are struggling to complete a run, although I have certainly met some runners who think anyone who can’t run a sub-4 hour marathon or a sub-2 hour half marathon shouldn’t be running at all. (And yes, I once heard a teenage guy say, “I don’t even understand how someone can not be able to run a sub-20 minute 5K.” Thanks, kid.).

I haven’t seen the same tolerance in the horse world for people who are struggling due to physical and mental limitations (even if they aren’t technically disabled and aren’t overweight), even if they are appropriately mounted and not causing any actual harm to the horse.

Any time you open up participation to a wider array of people of different athletic abilities, there is going to be a greater number of people who are visibly weaker, who would never have been able to or felt comfortable competing in an earlier era.

Interestingly enough, though, I have never heard of an elite level runner criticizing lower-level weekend warrior runners, although they may have criticisms for how younger elite runners are coached or how the sport is marketed in the United States. At least they understand it’s an apples and oranges comparison.

[hb]

@Impractical Horsewoman

Interestingly enough, though, I have never heard of an elite level runner criticizing lower-level weekend warrior runners, although they may have criticisms for how younger elite runners are coached or how the sport is marketed in the United States. At least they understand it’s an apples and oranges comparison.

I think the person in that quote was referring to people in a running club who were not top elite runners, but very competitive amateurs or lower-level elites. Similar to an A/O jumper rider complaining about the .80 meters but a GP rider being more concerned with their own riding than what’s happening in the other rings.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

Yes, exactly, @hb! The most critical runners I know of other runners are non-elite runners who feel superior to even “less elite” recreational runners than themselves, in their eyes! Your analogy about the A/O jumper looking down at puddle jumpers is spot-on! I am sure GP riders do not lose sleep over the presence of .80m classes, which is why I thought it was odd KP spent so much time on that issue.

[HayHay]

I want to weigh in as a re-rider who started out in the H/J/Eq world as a junior and found herself in the jumper/eventing world almost two decades later. As a junior, I learned to ride in barns riding a ton of different horses and did all of my own grooming and riding at both shows and at home; I even braided/groomed/mucked stalls for others at shows to make money towards my entry fees. My family was comfortably middle class, but didn’t have the money to buy me a made horse; they helped me buy a few OTTBs on the cheap, and then I brought them along as best I could with the help of respected trainers.

I learned a ton that way, but it wasn’t until a middle-aged German import landed in my lap for practically nothing (long story) that I realized something had been seriously lacking in my horse education. This horse had been started as a dressage horse in Germany, and then made the switch to jumpers in Europe when it was clear he wasn’t destined to be a dressage star. When I took over the ride, it was like nothing I’d ever felt before, not because he was a superstar, but because he had dressage fundamentals installed in him that made him incredibly responsive to aids over a course and was so much fun to ride on the flat. Before him, I never knew what it felt like to ride a horse that engaged from behind and came up and through to the bit; I was never taught how to do that from even my top trainers.

Fast forward to a few years ago when I started riding again and decided to buy a horse. I had a decent budget, but tried out a ton of horses in my price range that were not clicking. I finally found “the one” from an eventing barn that was way under my price range; he was only 4 and had barely started jumping, but I knew within a few seconds of being on his back that it was a done deal even though I probably had no business buying such a young horse as a re-rider. Want to guess what fundamentals he had that made him so appealing? It was dressage, and none of the older, more experienced horses from the strictly H/J barns I looked at felt anything like that. He was super trainable for jumpers after I bought him, and now he wins all the time against 5 & 6 figure horses.

I hope I’m not making a gross generalization, but from my personal experience (as both a junior and now re-rider), most hunter/jumper riders in America have no clue how to do proper basic dressage, which (along with basic horsemanship) should be thought of as a fundamental step to master before you’re even allowed to start jumping. I learned this the hard way when I took it up for the first time as a re-rider because I had to learn to ride the baby horse that knew more than me, but holy shit has it taught me a lot and kept me humble about how much I don’t know. Dressage is hard, but I’ve learned it is fundamental to ANY riding discipline, and so many other countries that do well in this sport seem to get this. If we want to keep up, real programs for producing top talents need to stop rushing through these types of fundamentals and teach trainers (and then riders) how to properly produce a horse using dressage as a foundation. I’m personally embarrassed that I realized this in my late 30s when it’s obviously a basic step in many programs overseas that we’re trying to emulate.

We really do have a problem in this country with equestrian sports, and it’s not because some AAs with zero Olympic aspirations go to shows and have fun at whatever level. The problem is that many of us who do have the aspirations to go further get stuck in the current model of manipulative & controlling programs with mentally ill/incompetent/money hungry/unskilled trainers because there are no other options. These programs don’t want to teach students how to really ride and how to properly care for and produce a horse, because then they can’t keep their amateur ATMs dependent on them for every little thing, each of course requiring an upcharge. It took me forever to find an honest trainer who emphasizes flatwork and horsemanship basics and doesn’t force the show schedule down her client’s throats. We’re actually expected to groom our own horses, clean our own tack and work through our own problems when things get tough or scary. It’s sad that this is so far from the norm these days, because I can tell you that the amateurs in these programs are far from weak and scared, but you probably won’t see them much on the show circuit because they don’t want to play that game, can’t afford it and/or would rather participate in horse trials.

[kirbydog]

@HayHay, that is a bit of a generalization. I would for sure agree that in the past, dressage was some funny stuff where you made the horses go sideways, but these days, upper level jumpers have to be super schooled up on the flat, as the courses are now so technical. Ditto derby horses. And if you are winning even at the 1.10-.20, you still need a working knowledge of correct flat work. The NAL/M & S/ WIHS finals are quite challenging. Same with the big eq finals. While there are admittedly many kids in those that leave you scratching your head how they got there, on fancy made equitation horses, no less, the top 10 are super talented kids, many of whom go on to be stars.

Sadly, I have to agree that there are way too many trainers who do lock and hold clients at a certain level. But the truly ambitious and talented will find their way to the top.

[ladyj79]

If you’re buying a young jumper coming out of Europe these days, generally you should expect to put the flat work on yourself. The business of showing and selling young jumpers is mostly about volume and turnover. The older show jumpers, the ones people keep to campaign a few years or more are the ones who will have good flat work installed.

It’s a different business than it used to be.

[skyon]

@poltroon

As a kid who rode every horse someone would let me put a leg over, from baby TBs to crazy old horses to all kinds of weird horse-shaped beasts - is that while I learned a lot from those rides, I didn’t really become an effective rider in the sense of someone who had a clue about how to ride at a high competitive level until I had a chance to sit on educated horses that had taught by true masters - horses that would give the right response that all the textbooks said they would if I rode correctly. Because of those horses, now when I sit on a green horse, I guide them in the right direction. Oh sure, I could get those horses I rode as a teenager to go the right direction and jump the jumps, and I rode without stirrups all the time, but they didn’t have educated mouths nor did I understand much about how to create balance and engagement.

I did not get that first finished horse until I was an amateur and was able to scrimp together the cash to buy it myself. I didn’t even know what I didn’t know until I had that horse.

Educated horses are very hard to come by for kids without a lot of money or lottery-level luck. Educated horses are themselves Big Name Trainers that make riders.

Today it is hard to find any lesson horses to ride on, let alone educated ones.

I suspect if Katie and I were to sit down and chat about what we think is ideal for bringing along young riders we’d agree more than we would disagree… not that my opinion is worth a tenth of hers.

I think she lacks, however, a perspective from the bottom of the sport, from someone from an ordinary family who just loves horses and want to work hard. And I think if she wants to know how to fix it, or what to fix, she’d do well to ask the perspectives of people who travel in circles very different from her own and get a better sense of all the people she never meets now that she is a former olympian with an international business and among the biggest of the big names - accolades that she worked hard for and certainly deserves.

Don’t know why this drew my attention but I admit I laughed out loud when I saw this quote “And many coaches have become coaches who just bring along amateur riders and make it easy for them. 'Oh baby, here’s a bottle of water. Are you too hot? Are you too cold? Let’s get a fan.”

The first time I ever saw this was in a group lesson in the 70s. The girl that was being centered on was potentially going buy a horse. No “baby” offered to the rest of us, lol. My friends and I were also dabbling in different types of sports that summer and it just stuck out… You learned volumes as an outsider just from that kind of observation.

Flash forward twenty years later, and I saw the same traits with kids that wanted to be trainers coming from show circuits. Centering on specific people. Catering to keeping them comfortable. Then come the private lessons and the horse for training rides. Here’s the rub… it works and there are wealthy parents to afford it that love the social aspect.

H/J comes from very rich people being involved in clubs and hunts. Hunts were for the privileged social set regardless of the differences it to showing today. . I’ve been around a few from past so entrenched in their belief of privilege and specialty that they can’t handle the thought that just maybe the art of riding isn’t all that special and unique.

Back in the day, you would find kids like myself and others who at least had the dwindling access to horses. Further back in the day, my dad and his friends had access to trail, western and old cavalry. Not showing and not money. In the present, especially in many showing circles the attitude is that is better to offer only to those that can afford such a privilege ( surely the horse will only suffer if not in this manner)- and since the horse options are becoming more limited, some inevitable-- they are getting what they wanted.

Just don’t be fooled into thinking that this is a young person/generation thing. I see quite the opposite at the soccer field/basketball/baseball courts, others. You could throw HS gymnastics in there. No doubt drama regarding coaching etc. - but resilience is still needed physically and mentally. They are pretty passionate about it. I’m sorry for Katie P and laughed (Bruce Davidson said something similar years back regarding problems in eventing with people purchasing but not learning), but in a nutshell, I’m kind of the thought to hand all of them mirrors…