Prudent Podcast

[GoodTimes]

@vxf111

I don’t know who you’re talking about, but I am guessing that the daughter is both TALENTED and had the opportunity to LEARN by having the time/accessibility to ride all different types of horses-- including ones that were not made/easy.

Well yes, but she WANTED to learn. She has the drive to get to the top. Like Mclain said she’s “hungry”. I think KP is missing the fact that there are 3 major components to reaching the upper levels.

1. Opportunity - this usually comes in the form of money or family (child of a pro, etc)
2. Talent - this comes from both time in the saddle and a natural feel
3. Drive - you have to really, really want to get to the top to make it there

Take away one of those things and you end up with talentless amateurs and the thousands of pros who never made it to the Olympics. There’s nothing wrong with that.

[ladyj79]

[QUOTE=GoodTimes;n9817158]

[QUOTE=Moesha;n9817048]

and the most strange and hypocritical thing about this is the trainers all liking posts on facebook, etc supporting her- ummm more than half your barn are “talentless amateurs”- how does that even make sense?

I’ve never been able to figure out the disconnect between the clientele at that barn and the daughters, other then the simple fact that not everyone wants to go to the Olympics.

And not everyone can become a great rider, regardless of how much they want it or how much money they spend. Now, I am a firm believer that most people can become good, proficient riders, with lots and lots of time in the saddle. But the reality is that not a lot of people have that time, because they work to support those horses and trainers and their own families.

Why on earth should they feel bad they don’t have the time to become a professional rider?? Why should anyone feel bad they aren’t as good as someone who for whatever reason has access to more horses, better horses, and more time to ride?

But then you have people like me, I’ve been lucky enough at times to work as a professional in various capacities, but as my partner of several years liked to scream at me, I don’t have “the heart of a champion” :lol::lol::lol::lol: or as my best rider points out, I want to keep everything, and my friends send my links to wormy bellied weanlings, and I have more than once bought a starving horse out of a field. And when people in Florida ask what levels I’m competing at I get to say “I’m very good with young horses.” And I don’t mean that in the sense that I ride the stupids, but that I have a narcoleptic effect on many horses and help them relax. When my rider’s big dinosaur (my profile pic) threw himself on the pavement when my rider got on him, guess who got to ride him? Because I’m soothing. When the young horses are freaking out to the extent that one actually split my rider’s helmet brim throwing their heads backwards while gazelle leaping, guess who gets to ride them? And again, not because I “ride through it,” but because they just don’t do it with me. And then my rider says what did you do? And I get to say “trotted around like a child on their pony?” When the awful mare was awful in Portugal, who spent several hours on her just walking around the show grounds?

But I’m also the person who my rider says so do you think you would want to maybe show some of the young jumpers, and then I come around a corner on a horse who has literally jumped 1.40 with an 11 year old, and I get a little weepy at the .90 fence, and we all realize that…I don’t have the heart of a champion :lol::lol::lol: But man do I want to ride in the 2’6 grooms classes :yes::yes::yes::yes: And I flat well.

Other than the sheer mean spirited-ness of Katie’s remarks and the absurdity of professionals with programs that cater to amateurs reposting them, I do wonder how the sport would function if all of these talentless amateurs simply disappeared. And I don’t mean took their money elsewhere, I mean like they just didn’t exist in this idealized world of talented professionals.

[vxf111]

@GoodTimes

Well yes, but she WANTED to learn. She has the drive to get to the top. Like Mclain said she’s “hungry”. I think KP is missing the fact that there are 3 major components to reaching the upper levels.

1. Opportunity - this usually comes in the form of money or family (child of a pro, etc)
2. Talent - this comes from both time in the saddle and a natural feel
3. Drive - you have to really, really want to get to the top to make it there

Take away one of those things and you end up with talentless amateurs and the thousands of pros who never made it to the Olympics. There’s nothing wrong with that.

Agree 100%. And 2 of the 3 isn’t enough. All the money in the world can’t buy talent. All the talent in the world (sadly) can go to waste without money.

[vineyridge]

I’d just like to point out that Michael Matz was the son of a plumber.

[ladyj79]

@vineyridge

I’d just like to point out that Michael Matz was the son of a plumber.

And a complete freak of nature :lol::lol::lol:

http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/overall-horseman-year-michael-matz

[B]However, Matz didn’t begin his connection with horses until he was almost 15, when a neighbor invited him to go riding. Then, one thing led to another and Matz became immersed in the sport, starting as a groom and working his way up the ladder.

He began his international show jumping career at age 21 when he forged a strong bond with a U.S.-bred Thoroughbred named Mighty Ruler (by Bold Ruler). The bay carried Matz to his first Pan Am Games in 1975 in Mexico City, where he earned the team gold and individual bronze.[/B]

It’s cool, it just makes me want to die :lol::lol::lol:

[js]

I wonder how far a 15 yr old son of a plumber with a talented TB would get today? I’m guessing not nearly as far as it did in 1975 for Mr. Matz. There is always an exception but it is getting much much harder for that exception to make it in today’s show world.

[ladyj79]

@js

I wonder how far a 15 yr old son of a plumber with a talented TB would get today? I’m guessing not nearly as far as it did in 1975 for Mr. Matz. There is always an exception but it is getting much much harder for that exception to make it in today’s show world.

To be fair, this wasn’t a horse and his boy. The horse was owned by a wealthy businessman and lent to the USET (and many show jumpers where thoroughbreds in the 1970s).

BUT

A 15 year old coming out of nowhere to be representing the USA at the pinnacle of the sport only a few years later was never, ever, ever, ever a common occurrence. That’s not the business or the sport changing, that’s just miracle confluence of events that almost exclusively exists in the world of the Black Stallion, Sylvester, and Lightening the White Stallion.

[Darkwave]

From my perspective, three things have always factored into success in this sport:

*talent
*hard work
*access to money

You need at least two of the three above, and having all three makes it better. Only having one of the above will never cut it. And amazing talent is exceedingly rare, which is why so many of our success stories are a combination of strong work ethic and financial resources.

What has changed over time is the amount of money one needs access to.

[js]

@ladyj79

To be fair, this wasn’t a horse and his boy. The horse was owned by a wealthy businessman and lent to the USET (and many show jumpers where thoroughbreds in the 1970s).

BUT

A 15 year old coming out of nowhere to be representing the USA at the pinnacle of the sport only a few years later was never, ever, ever, ever a common occurrence. That’s not the business or the sport changing, that’s just miracle confluence of events that almost exclusively exists in the world of the Black Stallion, Sylvester, and Lightening the White Stallion.

I didn’t mean that it was like a Hollywood story about a horse and his boy My point was Someone coming from that background with a very late start in riding and showing was able to accomplish it in 1975, didn’t matter who owned the horse. Today that isn’t going to happen.

[ladyj79]

@js

I didn’t mean that it was like a Hollywood story about a horse and his boy My point was Someone coming from that background with a very late start in riding and showing was able to accomplish it in 1975, didn’t matter who owned the horse. Today that isn’t going to happen.

But my point was it didn’t really happen in 1975 either haha like there is no world or time where this was common or normal. Matz was as unusual and unlikely in his time as he would be in ours.

And anyone who questions Matz being a freak, dude, how many people go to three Olympics, win everything, and then go, yeah, I’m bored, I think I’ll go train the best racehorse in the world now.

Matz is a magical unicorn.

[AffirmedHope]

@ladyj79

But my point was it didn’t really happen in 1975 either haha like there is no world or time where this was common or normal. Matz was as unusual and unlikely in his time as he would be in ours.

And anyone who questions Matz being a freak, dude, how many people go to three Olympics, win everything, and then go, yeah, I’m bored, I think I’ll go train the best racehorse in the world now.

Matz is a magical unicorn.

Don’t forget pulling children out of a burning plane crash!

[js]

Excuse me and my post for their inaccuracies I have deleted them

[ladyj79]

@AffirmedHope

Don’t forget pulling children out of a burning plane crash!

Exactly, my god!!! Everyone dies except Matz who leads four children from the burning wreckage :eek::eek::eek::eek:

(I don’t know that everyone else died…but most of them)

He isn’t human.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

Just for fun (and also to keep things positive, since one of the things that did irk me about the KP podcast was the lack of anything positive to say about where the sport is going), here are three biographies of the young up-and-coming riders I mentioned earlier who came from somewhat nontraditional backgrounds (in other words, not children of successful trainers or heirs to massive trust funds).

Zazou Hoffman

http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/theres-mutch-ado-about-zazou-hoffman

Mavis Spencer

http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/one-watch-mavis-spencer-has-gone-grooming-grand-prix

Jacob Pope

https://sidelinesnews.com/weekly-featured/jacob-pope-more-than-meets-the-eye.html

One thing that does stand out in all of the bios I have read of somewhat nontraditional riders’ backgrounds is having incredibly supportive parents who are willing to commit 100% to their child living their dream and also the riders’ willingness to use the few opportunities that are out there to get noticed (scholarships, the EAP, and so forth). To go back to the culture point, I have known some very talented riders from wealthy (but not infinitely wealthy) families who are hard-working but their parents are just not crazy about their kids spending that much time at the barn. The kids have horses and are not discouraged exactly, but the parents don’t go out of their way helping their child take advantage of every horsey opportunity that presents itself.

Even then, in all of these bios, a certain amount of luck is always a factor. Of course, an extraordinarily talented person is always prepared to exploit a lucky opportunity, so again, both talent and luck are needed.

[Darkwave]

@Impractical Horsewoman

Just for fun (and also to keep things positive, since one of the things that did irk me about the KP podcast was the lack of anything positive to say about where the sport is going), here are three biographies of the young up-and-coming riders I mentioned earlier who came from somewhat nontraditional backgrounds (in other words, not children of successful trainers or heirs to massive trust funds).

…

Mavis Spencer

http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/one-watch-mavis-spencer-has-gone-grooming-grand-prix

Without detracting from the considerable achievements of Mavis Spencer (and I really do have a ton of respect for her and her work ethic)…it does need to be noted that she is the daughter of Oscar nominated actress Alfre Woodard. So I’m not sure she fits in the same category as Zazou Hoffman and Jacob Pope.

[Backstage]

@Impractical Horsewoman

Just for fun (and also to keep things positive, since one of the things that did irk me about the KP podcast was the lack of anything positive to say about where the sport is going), here are three biographies of the young up-and-coming riders I mentioned earlier who came from somewhat nontraditional backgrounds (in other words, not children of successful trainers or heirs to massive trust funds).

Zazou Hoffman

http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/theres-mutch-ado-about-zazou-hoffman

Mavis Spencer

http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/one-watch-mavis-spencer-has-gone-grooming-grand-prix

Jacob Pope

https://sidelinesnews.com/weekly-featured/jacob-pope-more-than-meets-the-eye.html

One thing that does stand out in all of the bios I have read of somewhat nontraditional riders’ backgrounds is having incredibly supportive parents who are willing to commit 100% to their child living their dream and also the riders’ willingness to use the few opportunities that are out there to get noticed (scholarships, the EAP, and so forth). To go back to the culture point, I have known some very talented riders from wealthy (but not infinitely wealthy) families who are hard-working but their parents are just not crazy about their kids spending that much time at the barn. The kids have horses and are not discouraged exactly, but the parents don’t go out of their way helping their child take advantage of every horsey opportunity that presents itself.

Even then, in all of these bios, a certain amount of luck is always a factor. Of course, an extraordinarily talented person is always prepared to exploit a lucky opportunity, so again, both talent and luck are needed.

And not to diminish their accomplishments at all, but both Jacob Pope and Zazou Hoffman appear to have parents who were somewhat horsey. Sure, not trainer’s kids - but I can tell you that as a horsey person (but not a pro), the opportunities I could offer my own hypothetically horse-crazy child are far more than those that a typical non-horse parents could offer. There are lots of little things (like free pointers during a “schooling ride”) and bigger things (horse connections that might help find that great first large pony, etc) that a horsey parent can offer, even if they aren’t a pro.

I agree with your points on the parents’ commitment level. And it isn’t a knock on the parent who can’t do it, either. My parents had two busy careers, outside interests and I had two younger siblings with their own hobbies/plans. I was very fortunate that the barn was close enough that they were able to drop me off/pick me up fairly often as I got older, but when I was a younger kid, I wasn’t even a once-a-week lesson kid. It was every second week for a couple of years! Unfortunately/fortunately, there is no replacement for time spent in the tack and kids with horsey parents (or very committed non-horsey parents) are more likely to get it.

[skip99]

@Impractical Horsewoman

I ran into Mavis Spencer once or twice several years ago when, ironically, I was spending some time with some of the Irish guys who came over and stole our owners and horses. She struck me as very well put together and pleasant, and she must have only been 18 or 19 at the time. But she is definitely not from a nontraditional background in comparison to others at this level. Her parents are fairly famous in the film industry and likely are well funded. Good for her for working from the ground up.

Jacob Pope and Zazou Hoffman are from less well-funded families. I think a major part of their success is they have parents who were life long equestrians, even if not at the highest level. Parents who were involved with horses themselves are probably more supportive of participation in the sport and have either intimate knowledge of the sport or possibly some connections.

I help out a young girl right now, around 13 years old, and she is really brave and has a good feel. Her parents are not horse people. They will not allow her to stop all of her other activities and devote more time and money to riding. This means no leasing, no buying, only occasional local showing on a borrowed horse or pony. We are in an area where lesson barns do not allow you to show without a half or full lease and the prices are astronomical. She rides some of the horses I work with and while they are much too large for her (ie. 16-17 hands) and not always the most cooperative, she can handle most problems and the occasional buck doesn’t bother her in the slightest. She wants to move up out of the 2’ and under, but will not be able to without the investment of time and money from her parents. I help her for free, in exchange for a little help with tacking/untacking and keeping the area tidy and her father expects her to progressing extremely rapidly. I have told them that the horses I have available are not suitable and I would be happy to help them find a free lease that could give her more experience, met with “well then we have to get her here more than 2 or 3 days a week. Will barn owner be buying a horse that is suitable for her to ride?” Say what?!

I think the parents who are themselves horse people understand the money, time, and motivation that has to go into this crazy sport, not even touching on talent. They also know that if they can’t provide 1 of the 3 then there is a way to help make up the difference. Non horse parents, in my experience don’t understand that these 3 things are mostly a requirement to be successful. If you don’t have the money, put in more time or be more motivated. If you don’t have the time put in more money or be more motivated. If you don’t have the motivation, maybe throwing enough money and time (frequency) will help, but I don’t know that this one is so flexible. They also know that no one is going to give you anything for free in this industry… the kids with these parents will always have more of an opportunity because of their parent’s knowledge in my opinion.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

Oh yes, I did know about Mavis’ parents–although it’s worth noting (and this is kind of scary) that people can be Hollywood famous but not necessarily deep-pocketed by horse world standards, although obviously far, far better off than the average person (I know some people who have fairly major film credits and while they get lots of famous person perks like going to film showings, they aren’t necessarily Oprah-level rich). I wasn’t sure why her parents didn’t fund her horse career after she was a junior and was wondering if that was the case. Or perhaps they simply felt if she was talented enough, she should be able to do it more on her own.

Agreed 100% that having horsey parents is a major, major factor once again, particularly in a world where middle-class kids are so much more supervised and over-scheduled than they have been in the past.

[anon40672407]

@RAyers

However, there are specific competitions set for these types of riders, e.g. Para-Olympics. And if one were to look at the demographics, I suspect the population under consideration is well under 5% of the total competing population. These can easily be accommodated in the the second tier shows, e.g. local/B rated. What happened to those? They died under the mileage rules. A shows don’t have to be all inclusive. They weren’t in the past.

Yes and no. I think by “physical limitations” the poster wasn’t referring to missing limbs and the like. She was possibly referring to people like me, who in their 60s wouldn’t dream of doing big classes anymore, but still likes to have fun. IF I showed, it would not be at 3ft6.

BUT, it would be at a show with a class appropriate for me, which in some areas is pretty much only the A shows because this land is so big many areas don’t have lots of local/B rateds, and if the trainer is going to go with me (which in my case it would have to be since I don’t own the horse), it’s more efficient FOR THE TRAINER if it’s an A show with some dumbed down classes. Then I ride the little stuff and her few good riders do the big stuff. This is a financial accommodation that benefits THE TRAINERS AND COACHES.

Frankly I don’t think folks like me are the problem. I pay the trainer’s bills. I, and others, pay for several of the horses in her stables. Yes, I use up her training time, but if she had so many better students, she could shift me off to a secondary trainer and I’d keep throwing cash at her.

Eventing went out of it’s way to expand their pyramid of riders ON PURPOSE when The Militaire was fading, because they recognized that the lower level of the pyramid supports the folks at the top. Prudent might wish for better students, but she’s in a position to pick and choose. What’s wrong with that picture?

[anon40672407]

@vineyridge

We live in a world of entitled snowflakes who have never been punished for their actions or for their inactions. I’d like to know why the toughness that comes from the marine/cavalry way is not useful in elite sports where defeat is much more common than winning. Learning to lose and learning from loss is far more valuable than winning because someone bought you a faster car/horse.

There is still only one blue ribbon per class. Which means everybody else gets to learn something. We’re not handing out any more blues than before, so your point doesn’t stand.