I think it is ironic that she claims Beezie (granddaughter of General Patten of WWII fame) is a hard scrapple rider. Some for McClain Ward or Kent Farington. These “old timers” which includes Katie and George Morris were not “poor” or even middle class. They were wealthy. Riding is and always has been for the rich. Recently it is has become a sport of the “rich & famous” which may be the point of the interview.
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Thank goodness for horse owners with money who have provided young, unknown riders a place to develop their craft. 
Winterplace Farm was a nice gig for Katie when she was a newbie.
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/tbt-before-they-were-legends
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If I rode like that schooling at home, let alone at a show, my coddling trainer (who brings me water and wants me to be comfortable at a show) would pull me off my horse and I would not be showing again until I could prove to her I wouldn’t be yanking on my horse or hitting him when he stopped because I had a crappy line to a fence.
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As a kid who rode every horse someone would let me put a leg over, from baby TBs to crazy old horses to all kinds of weird horse-shaped beasts - is that while I learned a lot from those rides, I didn’t really become an effective rider in the sense of someone who had a clue about how to ride at a high competitive level until I had a chance to sit on educated horses that had taught by true masters - horses that would give the right response that all the textbooks said they would if I rode correctly. Because of those horses, now when I sit on a green horse, I guide them in the right direction. Oh sure, I could get those horses I rode as a teenager to go the right direction and jump the jumps, and I rode without stirrups all the time, but they didn’t have educated mouths nor did I understand much about how to create balance and engagement.
I did not get that first finished horse until I was an amateur and was able to scrimp together the cash to buy it myself. I didn’t even know what I didn’t know until I had that horse.
Educated horses are very hard to come by for kids without a lot of money or lottery-level luck. Educated horses are themselves Big Name Trainers that make riders.
Today it is hard to find any lesson horses to ride on, let alone educated ones.
I suspect if Katie and I were to sit down and chat about what we think is ideal for bringing along young riders we’d agree more than we would disagree… not that my opinion is worth a tenth of hers.
I think she lacks, however, a perspective from the bottom of the sport, from someone from an ordinary family who just loves horses and want to work hard. And I think if she wants to know how to fix it, or what to fix, she’d do well to ask the perspectives of people who travel in circles very different from her own and get a better sense of all the people she never meets now that she is a former olympian with an international business and among the biggest of the big names - accolades that she worked hard for and certainly deserves.
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I’m really having a hard time understanding why, when and how our showing standards changed. Yes, I showed ‘back in the day’, A shows and locals, on ponies and junior hunters. No children’s, pre-children’s, etc, because it wasn’t offered. (And, it’s not just hunters… I see it in eventing, too. There was a time Training level was the lowest level offered, now it’s Beginner Novice. I would assume dressage is the same, but I don’t know. Do they have Intro tests now at recognized shows?)
With the advancements in breeding, quality of horses, vet care, farrier work, saddle fit, just to name a few, shouldn’t our standards of performance have risen? Or, at least maintained? When and why did 2’6" become the pinnacle riders and their coaches aspired to? Especially on fancy imports and $5k saddles? No doubt I’m going to offend people with that statement, but hear me out. I’m not going to sit on the fence and judge people who don’t want to compete at Grand Prix or the working hunters or whatever. I get that, I really do. I’m one of you! What I want to understand is WHY, with all these advancements, we lowered our expectations of the horses and riders, instead of raising them.
Why did it start, who shares in the blame, and is it fixable?
Lets leave the money question out of it temporarily. Horses have been and will always be expensive. What I want to know is why and when did the industry as a whole decide that asking less of the athletes (human and horse) is more?
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Yep yep yep yep yep.
One huge junior trainer got his Maclay win because he worked in the barn and the trainer he worked for handed him a horse to ride.
Now he charges $$$$$$$ in a completely full service operation and insists people have multiple horses.
I wonder if Katie makes her wealthy students tack up their own, wash the legs after a ride, and sweep up the grooming stall when they’re done. I suspect not. I wonder if part of the $$$$$$$ fees includes taking additional lessons on Katie’s sale horses and youngsters. Guessing no.
And, let’s be real. It doesn’t matter if any of these kids learns to put a polo wrap on because they have zero intention of ever teaching or running a barn, and there is zero expectation for them to do so. Jessica Springsteen is not going to atand next to children’s hunter ring bringing along the next generation. Reed Kessler is not going to take a weekend to teach a clinic so that the rest of the horse world can learn from her knowledge. Lillie Keenan is not going to take a few hours each week to free lance teach a less privileged kid with a fire in her belly. Does Katie even do any of that stuff? Guessing not.
Personally, I think for every $ the USEF spends on helping to fund the top riders fly around the world to compete, the people getting the money should be expected to teach a commensurate value in clinics to the membership base.
Oh egads.
All their collective heads just flew off at the idea they might have to cater to regular people on normal horses for less than the usual astronomical fee.
We couldn’t possibly expect them to do THAT?!
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Beezie is not related to General Patten. That was made up by an announcer earlier in her career.
Beezie was an employee of Katie’s for quite awhile. Beezie’s parents had a small horse sales business. She meets the definition of ‘trainer’s kid’ more than any other category.
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I agree with Katie that there is a tremendous lack of horsemanship and in the top levels of the sport, although I think there is a larger picture to consider as posted above.
That said, I do believe it is possible to learn how to make up a high quality show horse on an amateurs budget and on the side of full time educational and desk job commitments, because somehow I figured it out.
I focused 0% of my dollars on showing and instead rode with trainers who were producers of horses. They had sales strings, not a barn full of clients to socialize with who showed two weeks of every month and went to Florida in the winter. I took lessons on my own horses and also rode every last sale horse they would let me sit on. If the horse scared me a little I still rode it. If the trainer put the jump up two and wider I quaked internally but executed the mission.
I got up at 4:30am to ride before work. I rode ottbs, QHs, and tried to ride each one as well as if I were Jen Alfano sitting on it. I did LSD with just started 4yos at 6am out in the NJ tundra in 19 degrees. I bought, developed, and sold my own investment horses. I can make a horse up nice enough now that it will sell for more than I paid for my house. A lot of amateurs say they can’t compete because they can’t afford a six figure horse but it is actually possible for people with desk jobs to make up their own. Charlotte Dujardin didn’t ride Valegro 7 hours a day, she rode him 45 minutes four times a week and used her time very well. They bought Valegro for 4500 btw.
When I turned pro, still on the side of a full time desk job, I taught regular folks on cheap ottbs how to ride better and helped them train their horses, because I want to pay forward the teaching I got from my trainers. I kept track each year of how many horses I rode on my birthday on the side of going in to my real job. The last year I did this it was 9. My birthday is in Jan btw so that’s a frosty proposition in Buffalo.
You want someone who is willing to do the work, bring up horses from scratch, pass the knowledge on and not sit down from 5am to 11pm? You got it.
A lot of the people at allllllll levels who piss and moan about the state of the sport, work ethic being dead, horsemanship out the window, nobody learning anything anymore… well, whether they are Katie Prudent or an ammy complaining about costs these days, I don’t see many people who truly want to learn how to make up their own and then do it.
Very few ammys who complain about not having enough opportunities or the sport being stacked against them actually participate in the sport outside their deskjobs as described above. And very few of the big name high dollar trainers, for all their bitchin’, would teach one of these ammys that is not going to buy a $500,000 horse, or help them no matter how much work the ammy was willing to do.
How many times have we read on COTH someone feels peevish bc their trainer keeps teaching them lessons on green horses but they really just want something where they can work on themselves and they ‘don’t want to spend money to train other people’s green horses.’ Hhhhhahahahahaha that trainer is teaching you to ride LIKE A TRAINER.
No interest whatsoever. Where is the packer I can work on my position on.
And even fewer people, again at all levels, feel any sort of compunction to help others learn or pass along opportunities in some way.
I’m a Hillary voter.
Perhaps your Trump voting friends are all sitting on $$$ horses they made up themselves from scratch at 5 in the morning in the hinterlands for years, and they help other people with their horses too, but I doubt it.
Personally, I think before anyone b*itches about conpetitive horses getting too expensive, they should make an honest to god effort to learn how to train up their own.
And also, before anyone else complains that horse sports have gone down the tubes and its all talentless wimps now, they should personally make an effort to teach regular horse people on normal horses without 6 figures to spend.
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To every person saying that 3’ and under riders don’t deserve to show at an A show, you sound like entitled snots! Why on earth do you think you deserve to show at that venue any more then a mom with kids and a job, or little Susie on her ottb is beyond me. They pay the same memberships as you do! They pay their entry fees!
Why should they have to jump the crappy jumps on the bad footing at the local shows when they love their horses and work as hard as they can with the time and money that they have???
In virtually every other individual sport the lower levels and the upper levels get to share venues. Even with hockey, etc. the only ones who get their own special venue are the pros, and even then they often host games for kids,etc.
When I was a junior I considered myself lucky. I showed up to 10 B level shows a year, it was exciting if we got to go to an A show. Like one of the posters above I got to ride dozens of different young sales horses, it was great, it meant that as an amateur I’m capable of buying an A quality youngster and developing it. But it meant that I never really got to show over 3’ as a junior. The sales horses always got sold out from under me midway through the season. I always had my own horses but they had to be shared with my mom who didn’t start riding until she was in her 40’s. Finding a horse safe enough to tote a 40yo beginner around and have the scope to bring a junior to 3’6" is a unicorn.
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I’ll bet a million dollars that when Adam Prudent got off that horse he handed him right to someone else and he walked away.
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To everyone who said, ‘But look at the opportunity I have to watch and learn from the pros at the A shows.’ Or, ‘I only have the chance to show a couple times a year and I also want to make it a vacation.’ Or ‘after working full time, I want to enjoy my horse and showing at the level I am comfortable.’
You know she’s not talking about you, right? As much as it might sound like it, she is not dissing lower level riders as a whole. I think she is dissing the trainers who have created a sort of spa environment out of riding and showing. Clients are not there to learn how to ride and learn horsemanship. They are there so they CAN stand in line at the coffee stand with Olympians. So they can be catered to. So they can socialize. Very little of it is about the horse.
OTOH, I have a friend who is an excellent trainer and she is always making it about the kids and their horses and doing lots of other things with their horses besides riding round and round the ring. She will also try to make it easier for people to afford by giving them deals on things. I am always the one telling her that the people you do the most for are going to be the first ones to leave you and this gets proven time and time again. Give the kids other horses to ride. Create great experiences for them. But don’t charge less than you are worth because if you charge less, people think you are worth less.
It’s a fine line.
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This may be true but that is not how it sounds.
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Because apparently it’s insulting if these people show up and play in the sandbox next to them. Apparently their “hard work” is insulted and diminished knowing there is a puddle jumper class going somewhere on the same grounds as their precious FEI class. I’m so sure the 5* riders at the shows where there are 1*/2*.YH shows running co-currently cry about how their GP and Nations Cup wins don’t really mean as much because some people have the audacity to show at the same location as them.
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I think she is talking about the weekend warrior. When she first starts talking about it, she’s talking about low jumpers, modified jumpers, etc., and how this has dumbed down the sport. Those are the division occupied by the true amateur who has no intention of going to the Olympics. She is definitely talking about “us.”
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Thanks for the correction. I remember being surprised but just believed the “internet”. Thank you. Though I am not sure being a “trainer’s kid” means you are living in poverty, but maybe I am mistaken on that.
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I consider myself so fortunate that I found a young, “hungry”, Grand Prix rider recently turned pro" to train and with which to ride (and my kid). I am a hard working ammy. I keep my very nice, AA level horses and ponies at home, trailer out to lesson and show, we do all the care etc ourselves. It allows us to show at more than a few A shows and makes it affordable.
I will say, it is a rarity. The other (slim pickins where I live) pros you have to board and pay full service. There is no "do it yourselfers allowed. One very nice barn I was sent to when I moved wouldn’t even let us haul out to do low level PC events with her friends if we boarded there (I know that is a business model that works for some).
We are the people who offend some of the FEI level horses. We are bringing up our horses ourselves, now with the guidance of a very good pro. My pony is showing at some of the lower level “opportunity” classes at AA shows because I don’t have access to pony jocks. How else are my kid and her fancy pony (I was offered mid 5 figures for him over the winter) going to get the experience to do the greens? There are very few schooling shows near me, B and Cs- ba ha ha non existent. We are putting in the work, my kid is riding hard, getting miles in the ring, getting dumped, learning how to train and ask for leads. Why is it a bad thing that we have to start at the bottom of the ladder? Why does it offend you?
I have a great career. I make good money. I am not a hedgefund baby. I can’t afford to send my mare away to be shown by the pros and be able to compete. So I trailer out, I get some pro rides, I ride her myself, I am starting at the low level classes at A shows that offend some people so much. I aspire to do the 3’6 again. Maybe I’ll get there. At 2’6 I know I can navigate it safely, if I miss or crash my saint of a horse can get us out of it. Maybe I’m wimping out, maybe I am old now and don’t want to risk getting hurt. Maybe I just lost my balls. Why is it so offensive. I am paying my dues, my fees, I’m getting us miles the only way I can.
I agree with a lot of points in the article. At Devon, we saw maybe 3 kids schooling their own ponies in the AM. The ring was mostly filled with trainers and assistants schooling the ponies. In the Ammy classes, I saw horses that had been shown by pros all week step into the ring and take the prizes. One ammy who won could barely hold on and flop all over. Yeah- but people are offended by ME. [eyeroll] My kid and I are the ones at the barn at 3 AM to get braided and cleaned and school. Then my kid goes in and competes against the kids who show up at 8:30 for the class. It is what makes it workable for us. It is the only way we know and can do it (even with a 6 figure salary).
I am so fortunate to have found our trainer ( who for the record does it all himself). He trailers his GP horses around, takes care of them himself at shows, grooms etc. The only thing he can’t do is braid ( hee hee). He allows us to do a lot of the work ourselves so he can get a start because we have quality animals. It is a shame he doesn’t have a huge following of clients yet because the ARE looking for the “show up and show” mentality. Maybe as his career progresses that will develop.
I’ll make sure I smile and wave at those who are so offended. I’m also probably the one who will offer you water or pick up your crop if you drop it. See you at the in gate (it’s OK if you don’t talk to me or look down your nose at me. I could care less).
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That’s great for you, I’m being sincere. Katie probably has respect for someone like you. But your lifestyle sounds like it’s unrealistic for the average amateur.
When I was a junior, and later as a young single I was very much like you. I was never home, I didn’t party or socialize like many of my friends. I often opted for clinics instead of shows. I worked for a few years as a groom but couldn’t ride since I wanted to keep my amateur status.
Now that I’m a little older with an SO and a dog, and likely kids in the future that’s not my life anymore. Starter homes in our area are approaching half a million, I have a specialized job which limits where I can live, I tutor one night a week and braid during the summer to help offset costs. I ride 1-2 horses 5x per week because while I’d love to be at the barn more I love my SO and value our relationship. It’s not fair to expect him to do all the cooking, cleaning, laundry, yard work, walk the dog, etc. It’s been clear since I was 12 years old that I’m not going to the Olympics, pouring your life into a sport at the expense of your loved ones doesn’t make sense.
Katie is absolutely talking about people like me. The 3 or 4 times a year that I want to show the nice warmblood that I made up from a yearling on nice footing, over 3’ or 3’6" jumps apparently makes her sick. I see her point, but amateur shaming is not the answer.
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As a fearful, talentless, and poor amateur who has nothing but respect for Katie Prudent, I think going off on the puddle jumpers really took the focus off of her more important points.
I understand that she is concerned about the proliferation of lower level classes at elite shows, not unrated and schooling shows, but that is actually not what she said, explicitly. She could have said, “If you’re not able to jump competently at a certain height, go and get some experience at a local show first” or something to that effect. It did come across (whether she meant it or not) that the vast majority of people who aren’t jumping 3’6" are somehow what is wrong with the sport–even if they KNOW that they are just having fun and have no higher level aspirations.
Surely it is more fair for both the horse and the rider if someone is jumping a height that is appropriate for the rider’s level of competency? TBH I’ve more often seen the phenomenon of riders that should be jumping 2’6’ or lower but want to find some unicorn horse/get enough pro rides to get them to jump higher than they should. And should fence height really be equated with skill level, period? What about being able to flat a horse correctly?
I can’t help thinking of running, another sport in which elites and mere mortals compete at the same venues quite often. It’s frowned upon to say nasty things about people who are, say, running 4 or 5 hour marathons (although occasionally I do hear that) because “it is better to be running than to be sitting on the couch.” And those people are the ones actually keeping the sport alive with their entry fees. There are plenty of people who, as others have said before me, have mental and physical limitations that might make them unable to compete at 3’6" or even 2’6" but still love and support the sport and are needed to sustain interest in it.
I also think that she tended to blend some very important and valid points (like the need to do hard, grunt work like riding without stirrups) with complaining about things like kids taking a drink of water in the middle of a lesson. I usually ride alone (and I also run, poorly and slowly, but I run) so I’m used to going for a long time without water breaks but is it really worth getting angry over someone who does to avoid passing out?
I think the second half of the podcast made some very, very important points about the need for the next generation of top talent to be able to know how to train horse, to spot a talented horse, to educate a horse. And to have a passion for horses and horsemanship that is deep and life-sustaining. To have experiences like foxhunting and riding out in the open outside of just horse-showing every weekend. It’s important to talk about, like others have said more eloquently than me in this thread, creating a pipeline for riders without trust funds that might have great skills to get a chance to hone those skills in programs that will allow them to flourish. But the whole puddle jumper/water break thing just diverted focus from that.
It also would have been nice to give a shout out to the next generation of young riders who have gained success through working student programs, working as grooms, and so forth even if they aren’t the norm, like Mavis Spence, Zazou Hoffman, Jacob Pope (just to name a few, I’m sure I’m forgetting some obvious names).
Again, just my $0.02 as a fearful, talentless, poor amateur–more of how she expressed herself rather than what she said. But I am sure she would just respond that she is a horse person, not in PR :lol:
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Yes, I did laugh at her comment that back in the olden days they flew to Europe to buy CHEAP horses. Uh, congrats on FLYING TO EUROPE TO BUY HORSES! are you kidding me??? Talk about out of touch.
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Where I live we have several really great local show series that are fairly well attended. But I agree that the A shows have taken over and pushed B shows out. I think thats a result of the big shows getting greedy and seeking a way to get more and more people to show so now trainers have no choice but to take LL ammies to A shows. We need a revival of shows that are more than little schooling shows but less than A shows. When I was in Syracuse they had a schooling show at the fair grounds and it was perfect because it gave the LL kids and ammies a chance to ride in the colosseum like an A show but it was unrated with the lower level classes you find at the schooling shows plus it was a great first show for my 3 yo. You suddenly go from backyard shows to A shows and a lot of the time the horses can’t handle all that commotion either which also attributes to an increase in drugging. Sorry for the rant…bring back the B shows!
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