This is the most cringe worthy video of riding I’ve ever seen! I was internally screaming the entire time. That poor horse…
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What I find disheartening is the lack of quality training out there. If mom wants the kid to jump they go to a trainer that will do it not matter if the kid is ready.
I heard a great statement recently, the most correct trainers have the least amount of students.
Our trainers are European and everyone starts the same way not matter what discipline you want to do. The basics are the basics and most of these kids have no idea how to ride. They are passengers on point and shoot horses. Even watching the GM horsemastership courses some of those riders, best jrs supposedly, cannot put a horse on the bit or even get the horse to engage the hind end.
Training a horse and or rider takes time and commitment. I am a lower level rider not because I don’t try but because I am balancing a family and work and my horse. I do not think she is talking about me but the kids who are promoted before they are ready just to go to a show. Local shows are supposed to be fun and keep everyone interested. Competing at rated shows is different but to be able to show there just because you can afford a horse that can make you look good is one thing but to have the horse drugged or lunged to death so they are quiet is crazy.
Kids should aspire to the likes of Mclain Ward, Beezie Madden. Michael Jung and Stefen Peters… These people can ride… Try and mimic them. Work with a trainer who will truly train you not just get you ribbons.
The lack of horsemanship is not surprising as kids today do not want to do the dirty work. It builds character and compassion.
I know that the people,kids and adults, who are riding with our trainers are learning correctly and that is important but most people do not know what is good or bad as anyone can hang out a shingle.
If you have the money get the best training and the best horses then you will win every where and no one will say you didn’t deserve it.
Just my 2 cents
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One of the best trainers I have ever ridden with has very few clients, probably because there is no full service nothing and the barn is bare bones functunality with no fanciness. He does his sale horses and has a few people he teaches. Anyone who wants to bring their young horse and be given the step by step instructions in how to bring it up the levels is welcome to trailer in. He has made $1500 horses circuit champion at Thermal.
Don’t see very many people showing up.
There are trainers who will teach people how to rode like trainers. There are big names sho will give a kid a chance. Remember Luke Olson? He was a working student at Jen and Susie’s, exhibited exemplary work ethic, horsemanship and character and they sent him to the finals on something they found for him even though he was never going to be in the top 10.
I think a lot of the complaining is that the glitz and glamour, horse show focused route is getting very pricey. But learning how to ride in a program that produces horses (as opposed to showing already produced ones), isn’t on the road two weeks every month, doesn’t have full service IS available. I know plenty of people with normal jobs who have learned to ride as well as pros -on the side of full time school and work. Maybe hey were working students for a summer in their younger days, they took lessons on “lesser” horses, they trained up greenies in a field in their back yard and they kept at it. They didn’t have to horseshow to learn how to ride at the professional level.
This “bringing along horses from scratch and not necessarily horseshowing 20x per year” is not what most of the amateurs who complain on COTH envision for themselves though. Learning to ride, very well, is available, but they complain because they are priced out of the cadillac plan where someone has trained the horse before you ever hop on it. They want to learn on schoolmasters, not figure it out on a lesser horse.
Katie in her article for her part is one of the trainers cashing in at the tippy top, catering to the full service, multiple elite horses crowd, not teaching any regular people and not bringing up any future teachers of others. The ammys she is complaining about are not the only people who don’t want to get up early to fit in a ride on a less elite horse - I don’t see her making time to teach a lesson to a non elite rider.
And yet somehow the trainers who will do excellent teaching out of a functional facility for accessible pricing are not exactly full to the rafters with hordes of amateurs wanting to learn and do their own grooming. Few amateurs actually want to spend their money and time in those sorts of programs. Few amateurs want to keep their horse in a sale barn where there are few other clients to socialize with and they have to do their own tack ups, even if they would get the opportunity to ride extras and take a few rides off their trainer’s plate on the weekends (but also help water the ring, feed lunch hay, whatever).
There are multiple people on this thread demonstrating how it is possible to get a very good riding education, and learn how to ride and make up your own high dollar horses and ponies without spending the top dollars Katie charges or riding the elite horses Katie’s clients ride. Read the thread - multiple people on it jave figured out how to move up the levels and learn fron the ground up.
The fact that Katie is out of touch with this pipeline and doesn’t seem to have any interest in strengthening it is sad, but most of the amateurs who complain from their end are out of touch with it too.
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I disagree that there aren’t hordes of amateurs wanting to learn and do their own grooming. There are thousands of those amateurs across the continent. Most of these amateurs, including myself, are no bodies though because showing 20x per year isn’t the goal. Selling the horse in the end usually isn’t the goal either.
A lot of people out there are amateurs not because they lack the talent and ability, but because they want to have a life outside of horses. The majority of amateurs out there aren’t the ones in full service barns with BNT showing year round, those are just the ones you see in magazines and in the standings.
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yep. that’s him.
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^^^me everytime she was saying “cheap” horses.
I’m an amateur on a dirt cheap horse that I made up myself, but no one will ever see me at the upper levels of any discipline (I event) because I just cannot afford it. No amount of “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” or “just work harder at becoming a better rider” will change that. The numbers are not there to support showing (or doing lessons/clinics) at that level.
Overall it was a good interview IMO, I agree with a lot of what she said (and with a lot of what is posted here.)
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I’m just so tired of the shaming and finger pointing from all sides of this sport.
If you’re not jumping at least 3’6", then you’re not worthy.
If you’re not riding every crappy horse you can find, then you’re not worthy.
If you can’t braid or wrap legs or clean a stall, then you’re not worthy.
If you don’t spend part of every day riding without stirrups, then you’re not worthy.
If you spend thousands every month on your horses but dare to entrust their care to the professionals whose livelihoods you are supporting, then you’re not worthy.
If you do every bit of gritty care for your one $500 off track TB but your biggest life goal is to compete at your local “A” show each year at 2’6", then you’re not worthy.
Being involved with horses in any way, shape or form is a privilege. If you are a kind owner and/or rider whose horses are healthy and cared for, then you are a valuable contributor to this sport. THANK YOU.
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While much of what she said may be factually correct, the insults were…well…insulting. And the whole thing was devoid of any ideas for how to keep Team USA competitive given current horse industry realities. Very unimpressed. “Get off my lawn”, indeed.
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THANK YOU for posting this!
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One thing has not been mentioned, and I do think it contributes to the specific questions above about when and why the “dumbing down” of horse shows happened, continues to happen…
In horse riding and showing, as in many other parts of modern life, the general environment in the US of A has become increasingly risk averse. Even while recognizing that horses are large, powerful, and sometimes unpredictable creatures, “we” increasingly want to do everything we can to control the associated risk - and that collective “we” includes riders, parents, trainers, coaches, horse owners, etc. Lots of related factors/pressures not directly related to generating income contribute to the environment of risk - a largely unregulated “industry”, a CYA mentality, a desire to ensure that Little Suzy has positive experiences (= not getting badly injured or scared) so she will keep riding and showing instead of joining the travel soccer team. To this end, going UP the levels means Suzy (even on a saintly packer) needs some skills and some strength. She needs to be able to get and keep the right canter and make the strides as the fences get better. She may need to go a bit faster, and if she comes loose trying to jump 3’, well, the ground is definitely further away than if she was doing 2’ or 2’3" so she may hit the ground a bit harder. She might break a bone. Getting up the levels means increasing risk.
I am in a region where there is a decent A h/j show circuit. There is a limited B/C show scene. There is very, very little in the way of quality schooling shows with over fences classes (haven’t been around long enough to know if this is different from 30-40 years ago). One A show hunter/jumper barn that I am familiar with completely shuns the schooling shows, and they have pretty legit reasons for doing so - either the footing is bad, the course design is ignorant, or the judging is indecipherable. BNT wants to spend her time and effort at venues where more of the variables are controlled and where her clients are more likely to have positive riding experiences even if they are just doing cross rails.
I think the desire to minimize risk also greatly influences horse selection - but that is a whole different train of thought so I won’t elaborate on it - maybe l will come back and expand on it later.
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And Mclain’s response:
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/in-response-mclain-ward-show-jumping-evolving
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I think it is possible to say that the big shows are a great opportunity for a barn with a diverse set of clients to have a positive experience where both the top level riders and LL riders get something valuable (experience, prize money, etc). I do not think that my saying that means I don’t think we (by this I mean USEF) needs to figure out how to better support B/C shows.
I think it’s not enough for the B/C shows to just be cheaper to compete with the mega A shows. I think the B/C shows need to offer things that the A shows cannot/will not. One idea might be to allow exhibitors to see judges cards or encourage the type of comment based judging that is then shared with riders. It seemed to work really well in the Whitethorn Equitation Challenge, I think Stacia Madden even commented that she really liked judging that way.
Or to spend a little money to have a well-respected jumper trainer like Bernie watch the jumper rounds and offer a couple sentences of feedback as part of a multiple class package. I think both amateurs and professionals in a smaller market would really appreciate that. Or offer the jumper riders inexpensive videos using the robot cameras like the soloshot (whenever version 3 ever gets here) so trainers can start to build a portfolio of videos for their sales prospects. Or maybe have a collection of B/C shows in an area pool resources for nice jumps to share during a show season. Or could USEF offer a footing consultant to better educate show operators on how to improve their footing maintenance standards at shows without needing to fully install GGT or the latest in footing technology.
I would be thrilled in USEF put together a task force to ask folks what keeps them away from the B/C shows and run ideas by them that might make them more compelling. I know for example that despite being just a “B” show, West Palms actually had a good amount of interest from exhibitors for their Santa Barbara shows during Thermal, bc they offer a far superior product to what Tom grinds out for 8 weeks. Sadly they got rained out but I know even some BNTs were keen to get the heck out of the desert for a well-organized, smaller show.
I think there’s a really opportunity to see USEF spend some resources to figure out what the B/C shows can do to be competitive if they won’t undo the godawful mileage rule.
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I would like to point out that around my part of the world, the non-rated shows, where some people think that the Not Worthies need to go, are some of the worst (or best) places for drugging, overworking, and general abuse either deliberate or through ignorance. I sent a lovely young horse of mine with my assistant to one of these local horse shows, and was appalled. Scrawny, lame horses going in 10 classes a day. Hot Tb’s running at the jumps with heads straight in the air, missing lead changes and just plain bad jumping in the hunter divisions then moving on and also showing in the jumpers! And this is the norm.
I had several people move into my place from this circuit, who are now showing in the lower level hunters and jumpers at the A’s, and they have learned so much! They now see what can be…had they stayed at the non rated shows, they would never have seen the possibilities. A few of them moved up FAST, because they were given the opportunity. Some of them are limited by talent, some by money, but without the chance to see what is out there, none of them would have improved. And yet these people must offend the sensibilities of certain posters.
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Yup. I agree totally with a bunch of the points she made, but her communication style and word choices were pretty insulting in a lot of cases.
It’s funny, and this may be a total side anecdote, but the whole conversation reminds me of a pretty memorable moment of my early riding career. We were at a local C rated show, and I was riding in a piddly kids’ class (childrens hunters maybe, or low level equitation). My trainer was pretty tough, and truth be told I was scared of her. But as far as management and horse care, she expected everybody to know how to do things and be independent. That was the expectation, so I got my leased school horse ready (braided myself, yay!), got to the ring, and put my number in with the gate crew. She was nowhere to be found, I think she was at the other ring with one of her jumper riders, so I put my number in as late as I could and went to warm up.
Eventually my number gets called, she’s still nowhere to be found, so I went ahead and went in and rode my ride (and actually did better than normal, probably because she wasn’t watching LOL), and felt pretty proud of myself. Only to come out of the ring seeing her storming back toward me, ripping me a new one for daring to GO IN AT MY APPOINTED TIME and not waiting for her.
Even now I’m kind of like… dude… which is it? were we supposed to be self sufficient baby horsemen, or were we supposed to need you to do every little thing? You were always telling us to learn how to take care of ourselves, but I can’t walk into a ring and find eight jumps without you at the gate?
I think that popped into my head because through most of the podcast I kept thinking of the same weird dichotomy. Which is it? Kids are supposed to scrape and suffer and work really hard and love the sport and ride bareback and develop those skills, or are they supposed to just show up for lessons and classes at shows as YOU have enabled them to do by all accounts? It’s great if you want to encourage the first and think that’s what is needed for success in this sport, but if you spend most of your career developing the other type of rider, complaining about it is a little bit dishonest, really.
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I think Mclain articulated it very well. It’s an expensive sport and it’s always been an expensive sport. The people who came from nothing and made it to the top are few and far between.
The price of horses is not going to go down, that’s worldwide, not limited to the US.
My old coach moved to Canada from Switzerland. He acknowledged that while shows in North America are further away and more expensive, the cost of land and hay is substantially cheaper. In Canada he has more difficulty getting miles on them, but doesn’t feel the pressure to sell them as quickly because he doesn’t have the overhead.
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WTG McLain!
Another thing to consider…if the horse show industry had not “dumbed down” to meet the demands of today’s consumers, where would the English disciplines be, I wonder? It’s hard to imagine in what other direction it could have grown. Changes in modern lifestyle, barns pushed out of urban/suburban areas, and loss of open spaces for things like Fox Hunting and the old Eventing format have been pretty significant impacts to our disciplines.
I disagree with you. Horse showing has always been all inclusive , at least where I grew up . it only mattered how your rode not what color you were or sexual orientation or your religious persuasion. Did it ever occur to you that many “POC” were just not interested in our sport? I remember being told by a black Trainer on the track in the early 70’s that no self respecting Black mother or father would EVER allow their daughters on the back stretch. While “POC” were not prevalent back then … they were there as riders trainers and grooms , perhaps you just didn’t notice them, maybe they weren’t the BNT or BNR but they were their and still are .
Katie Prudent was for the most part spot on. Yes, horses have always been expensive. But now if you want to compete at the 1.50-1.60 m levels, it takes a 7 figure horse- and actually, more than one. Especially if you want to qualify for many of the FEI competitions where your ranking (based on total of points earned and therefore influenced by the number of horses you have) dictates whether you get to compete there or not. It was never like that when Katie, McLain, etc were growing up. Greed drives many trainers and success drives many competitors. Too often the basics of riding get overlooked. Watch the European riders- in general, they walk in the ring and their horses are like butter- on the bit, flexible, listening. You don’t see that as much in America because we are always at shows, chasing points and ribbons, and don’t focus on the proper development of the horse on the flat. You don’t learn to ride at shows like you do back at home. Our future, I’m afraid, is not as rosy as things are now.
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Agreed. The dig at the “fearful, talentless amateur” was so unnecessary. I can assure you that my ability, or lack thereof, to jump bigger jumps is not preventing North America from producing top class riders. For some of us, it wouldn’t matter how much money was spent on horse flesh, we don’t have the ability/talent to jump those jumps.
I also found her comments tone deaf, as many other posters have pointed out. She has benefited from this system, yet doesn’t seem to be saying - I wish I’d encouraged my students to bring along greener/more difficult horses, or that she has decide to change up her program and encourage her students to diversify so they have a broader range of skills.
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