Pullback Owners Anonymous

[ake987]

First of all, thank you OP, for posting this thread. Clearly, this is not a problem that only affects a few animals. Many horses are just never going to be able to tie, for many different reasons.

I am the owner of a pullback. Luckily, as I have owned him and he has grown up a little and learned that I would NEVER put him in a situation where he could be hurt (whenever he gets the “worried look” in his eye, I calmly stand with a hand on his shoulder/withers, and repeat that I would never let anything I ask him to do hurt him, and in my brain, he understands this, whether it is my tone, my words, my touch, whatever. It helps.)

While getting to know each other, we had a few scary instances where he showed me his true panic mode, and I have decided that the risk of tying him is not worth the benefit of having a horse that ties. He is always held for the vet/farrier, but can be crosstied to tack up, I just make sure I have everything I need out and ready so that I don’t have to leave him too much. A few months ago, when he pulled back on me for the farrier, my farrier grabbed my horse and pulled back to make him mind his manners. Well, my horse did a backflip on the concrete aisle. I was lost for words. You can’t teach these horses “a lesson”, because in their minds, they are not being disobedient, they are terrified. Do we really need to force them to tie because it’s more convenient for us? I don’t think so! I love my pullback and I am glad for all the other pullbacks with wonderful, understanding owners that love them as well, as evidence in this thread.

Our horses make do with our quirky personalities and many flaws, I think they deserve the same respect from us.

[SmartAlex]

[QUOTE=ake987;5337832]
You can’t teach these horses “a lesson”, because in their minds, they are not being disobedient, they are terrified. [/QUOTE]

As evidenced by the look in my horse’s eyes as he stands tied to the blocker ring on my arena wall… neck stretched out carefully to leave plenty of slack… “I don’t like this At.All., but if I pull she’ll be unhappy, so I’ll stand here on egg shells until she comes back to rescue me…”

[Eklecktika]

[QUOTE=ake987;5337832]
…edit…You can’t teach these horses “a lesson”, because in their minds, they are not being disobedient, they are terrified. …edit…[/QUOTE]

Ehhhh…Not always. Some ARE truly afraid, yes. BUT-being “tie-able” isn’t always for my convenience-it’s for their safety-both while I own them, and if I should sell them for whatever reason. Think worst case scenario-injury and I’m the only one onsite and need to tie; trailer wreck; I’m unavailable and someone else must handle them-you can’t avoid everything.

Some, however, are spoiled, and have always gotten their way-either because of ignorant handling (meant not unkindly-ignorant = lack of knowledge) or whatever other circumstances-and simply throw a temper tantrum because they can’t have their way. Being able to read basic body language goes a long way…as does knowing your horse.

Don’t misunderstand. That isn’t to say that I don’t agree: ‘Teaching them a lesson’ in the manner you implied isn’t appropriate in either situation.

Either way, it’s boils down to an inability to give to pressure, which is a base skill. It’s part of basic education for horses-kindergarten, if you will. Inability to stand tied, IMO, is a big hole in their education. Fear of restraint CAN be overcome in a large majority of cases-given proper training.

Aaaand with that goes this statement-

I think we all know what ISN’T proper training…

[SAcres]

Hello, I am Sundance_Solo, and I am the owner of a pullback.

I came into ownership of an 18 yr old OTTB in July. I thought he might be a pullback, but wasn’t 100% sure. He is the kind that goes into a blind panic when he feels too much pressure on his poll. Anytime I put more than light pressure on his poll (with my hands, halter, bridle, etc) his eyes roll back and he panicks. First time he did it with me he was cross-tied. Backed up slightly, felt poll pressure, and shot backwards, broke both cross ties (tied with baling twine). Once he felt the pressure release he was ok, he didn’t go anywhere, but it was very scarey. I had a few more moments similar with leading him to places he didn’t want to go. I eventually found out, instead of trying to pull him into a place he doesn’t want to go, it’s easier for me to apply steady light poll pressure, and wait for him to realize it’s ok. I tried to work with him to “train him” to tie, but every session ended badly. I gave up on the sessions.
He’s doing better now (6 months later) to the point where I feel comfortable with him on cross ties as long as he’s not figeting too much. I tell anyone that works with him not to pull on his halter, that he’ll follow you anywhere, you just have to give him a chance (which is true). He will stand for the farrier with a leadrope around his neck or with me holding him. When I groom him it’s either in his stall or standing in the isle with the leadrope around his neck.
He’s not the kind of horse that you can “train” how to tie. It just isn’t in him, and even if he got to the point where I thought he was “trained” I still wouldn’t tie, because with his history, I just wouldn’t trust him. He’s a doll though, and I love him dearly. He has a lovely and kind personality, in-your-pocket, puppy dog type. He loves to be loved, so that makes up for his 1 vice.

[LauraKY]

We had a terrible pullback horse. He panics easily and stops thinking…you can just see it in his face. We’ve also trained horses with pullback problems.

He now ties anywhere. It took a lot of time, training and VitaCalm supplement, but, for the most part, he’s an angel.

First, we start training head down and giving to pressure. Once that’s ingrained, we start them in a fairly enclosed space, either the indoor or outdoor washstall, so there is something solid behind them. We start by tying with twine that easily breaks and slowly progress to cross ties with panic snaps (and never, never, the bungee snaps). I never remove the lead rope until I know they will be comfortable.

Sounds like your method works for you, but I still would be afraid, in an emergency, that someone who doesn’t know your horse’s history might attempt to tie. But, if it’s working for you…great.

We had a mustang boarder that relapsed with EPM and, at the end, he couldn’t be cross tied. His owner had taught him to ground tie so, we just never used the cross ties. He never really panicked, he would just put it into reverse until he broke the cross ties (those #&*@ panic snaps have never released on their own for me). So, it wasn’t a safety issue, it was a cost replacement issue.

[millerra]

Hi

My name is millerra.

And I am the one afraid of tying my horses. I am the one who always ties her horses w/ a twine string loop. I am the one who will also leave her horse(s) standing in the trailer(doors open, ramp down) rather than tied to the side. While tacking them up, I’ll have the lead through the trailer tie but I’m hanging on to the other end. The horses do essentially ground tie.

I think my horses all tie. They all cross tie. But having known a horse that strangled himself while tied, I am terrified of leaving them tied solid or w/out being under my watchful eye.

I am ashamed…

[horseshrink]

Well…I, for one, feel better knowing I’m not the only one hiding in the closet. No one close to me knows my mare doesn’t tie. Not even my trainer. I am very good at hiding it.

Wow. Feel like I need a 12-step program.

I AM SO EMBARRASSED.

What I get from the above reading is that most people use a loop of baling twine. I also do and have a loop of baling twine everywhere there is a tie; cross ties, trailer ties, stall ties, etc.

Since my mare has broken countless halters, leadropes and ties I feel she now knows that she can panic and break away. I worry that she will fight until she breaks her neck because she knows something will break sooner or later.

Once they have broken free, is there any way to re-teach her that she cannot get loose?

[Auventera_Two]

Every horse on my farm must tie. Period. That is not up for discussion. You live here - you tie. You don’t tie? You get training every single day until you do tie. However long it takes to TRAIN the horse is fine, days, weeks, months, I don’t care. But they will be trained. I don’t do baling twine or blocker tie rings. I spend whatever time I have to spend to teach the horse to tie. John Lyons has a wonderful step by step article if you don’t know where to start. Pulling back and fighting a tie is entirely too dangerous to make excuses and not fix it. If you’re turning to gadgets and gimmics to “fix” this problem, it’s a matter of time until you or your horse is seriously injured or killed. One of these days SOMEONE will accidentally tie up your horse or your gadget will fail or the horse will need to be tied for a veterinary procedure. What if you die tomorrow and your family puts your horses on Craigslist? Will the next person down the line know your horse will freak out and break his neck if he’s tied up? You owe it to your horse to train him properly.

If a horse can be taught to tolerate a 200 pound human on their back with a metal bar in their mouth, then they CAN be taught to tie. If they can be taught to walk into a metal box on wheels, they CAN be taught to tie. If they can be taught to tolerate a needle in their vein or hammering nails into their hooves, they CAN be taught to tie.

We will spend years training a horse in the discipline of our choosing but if they pull back and break a rope we throw up our hands and say “OMG he can’t be tied! I need to go buy a blocker tie ring and tell everybody that I know that my horse can’t be tied and I need to make a bunch of excuses why he can’t ever be tied, ever again, ever.”

If your horse fails to execute a lateral movement, or can’t take a correct lead, do you just throw up your hands and say “OMG! My horse can’t ever canter on the left lead, ever. I need to go out and buy a gadget and tell everybody I know that my horse can’t ever canter on the left lead ever again, ever. I won’t even try.”

People take the time to properly train horses in many different extremely scary situations, but for some strange reason people are just scared to tie horses. Well, people in the English world. You don’t seem to hear of this or see it with Western people and in Western barns.

There is no reason in the world why there should be a cutesy phrase for a horse that pulls back and endangers his life. Instead of coining cute phrases and joining a club, PLEASE for the sake of your animal, TEACH THE HORSE TO TIE. Maybe I’m just feeling particuarly pissy today, but I am so tired of reading about horses pulling back and breaking equipment.

[MXL]

Auventera Two : What is your method for teaching horses to tie? TIA.

[SmartAlex]

[QUOTE=Auventera Two;5338294]
… Maybe I’m just feeling particuarly pissy today…[/QUOTE]

A2… step away from the COTH forum… take a deep breath. Smile. It makes you feel better.

[Auventera_Two]

@MXL;5338299

Auventera Two : What is your method for teaching horses to tie? TIA.

Baby steps, lots of treats, adding pressure just an ounce at a time, and training the horse to step forward when they feel poll pressure. Don’t tie at first, loop the rope around a pole. Encourage the horse to step forward toward the pole when he feels pressure. The tiniest lean forward or “try” is rewarded lavishly with treats, pets and praise. It may be weeks or months before you ever actually tie the rope.

[MXL]

[QUOTE=Auventera Two;5338312]
Baby steps, lots of treats, adding pressure just an ounce at a time, and training the horse to step forward when they feel poll pressure. Don’t tie at first, loop the rope around a pole. Encourage the horse to step forward toward the pole when he feels pressure. The tiniest lean forward or “try” is rewarded lavishly with treats, pets and praise. It may be weeks or months before you ever actually tie the rope.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the response. How long would you work each session? Also, how do you transfer this knowledge and/or teach horses to tie to cross ties? I appreciate your time.

[Auventera_Two]

@MXL;5338320

Thanks for the response. How long would you work each session? Also, how do you transfer this knowledge and/or teach horses to tie to cross ties? I appreciate your time.

Each horse I’ve worked with on this has done quite well with around 20 minutes per session. Any more than that, and I felt like it was “drill and kill.”

When I teach horses to cross tie, I attach one cross tie, and then run a lunge rope up through the tie ring on the other side, so I can only add a tiny bit of pressure and then release it, reward, etc.

The idea is to never apply pressure until the horse feels the need to fight. If they get wild eyed and run backward, then you went way too far. They should learn to always move their head forward in response to poll pressure.

Some horses may truly have a screw loose and never be trainable but those are the types that generally can’t do anything without freaking, and it’s not just limited to tying. I’m sure those horses DO exist but I think they are very rare.

[MXL]

@Auventera Two;5338344

When I teach horses to cross tie, I attach one cross tie, and then run a lunge rope up through the tie ring on the other side, so I can only add a tiny bit of pressure and then release it, reward, etc.

Thanks, again, for responding. Just so I have this image in my head straight. The one side, the horse is attached (should be no biggie, since s/he has been trained to tie). The other side: the lunge rope hooks to the halter and goes through the other tie ring (but you’re standing on the side where the horse IS tied or on the other side [or maybe it doesn’t make a difference?]). Sorry to be so concrete, but where are you standing in this scenario? Again, I appreciate your time–I’ve got a couple of youngsters that need to be taught how to stand in cross ties!

[Mrs.ChickenBritches]

I also have a Pullback Pony. She is very unpredictable about it and will pull in crossties and when straight tied. She has broken 3 leather halters and so far hasn’t busted the 4th and its been 2 years now(?) since the last episode. I still tie her but watch her like a hawk and use a Blocker Tie Ring. When dd was showing her we always got a stall to avoid having to tie at the trailer and always make sure to be there to hold her for the farrier. I still dont know what sets her off but, for her, its definitely a panic reaction. At one barn she sat down in the crossties, broke them and a muck bucket in the corner in about 5 seconds. She also, in the past, threw herself over backwards twice on the lunge line. I’ve just learned to work with it I guess. Silly Pony:no:

[coloredcowhorse]

[QUOTE=Auventera Two;5338294]
Every horse on my farm must tie. Period. That is not up for discussion. You live here - you tie. You don’t tie? You get training every single day until you do tie.

Thank you. Same here. I am a single person operation and not tying is not an option. I do like the Blocker Tie Rings as you can gradually increase the amount of effort it takes on the horse’s part to pull back and get slack…so those that have learned to pull and break things can relearn using this. If I had tall cottonwood trees (like a cutting trainer I used for awhile) every tree would have branches trimmed back and one strong lateral branch used to train…there would be an inner tube secured to the branch and a short rope with a bull snap tied to the lower curve of the inner tube and hanging at about half way between the horse’s head at “alert” and his chest. The horse goes out to the tree and is tied to the inner tube. He can’t get his head down to brace against the rope but can drop it enough that his neck is relaxed. He can’t run into the tree trunk (but can body slam it with his butt if he wants to…usually one or two is all it takes for them to quit doing that). He can spin (there’s a swivel built into the bull snap), walk in circles with his head toward the center and generally throw a fit if he wants to. He can back up but not get an angle on his neck to do damage. He can rear up but won’t hit the branch. If he digs he makes himself a deeper hole to stand in. In general a working day or two out there on the tree is enough that they will tie anywhere, anytime and not pull back as he’s learned it doesn’t do any good, he can’t get away and he 's not getting hurt. Tough cases get to spend all day and all night out there (food and water provided and every 6-8 hours he’s taken for a walk). I also teach to ground tie (there aren’t trees out here on the desert and if you need to make a pit stop behind a sage brush while out on a ride you have no place to tie…you either ground tie your horse or you squat holding onto the reins and hope he doesn’t pull back dragging your bare backside into a cholla cactus or a thorny greasewood. Tying/ground tying is better/safer.

[katarine]

Meh, plenty of horses have enough baggage that sometimes, tying is more trouble than it is worth. Like the polo mare who is perfect in every way, and will stand at the stock trailer along with the rest of the string and be fine. But tie her, and let her sense she’s tied? wreck city. So her owner doesn’t tie her- she does not have to- just drapes the lead through the ring and done. I suppose she could try the Clip or Blocker but for her after years with this mare, why bother.

So you just work around it.

If you think you can manage it, the Clip or the Blocker Tie Ring, in the loosest/the least restrictive setting, is ideal, coupled with a long, soft leadrope that will slide easily. That should let them feel they aren’t trapped and claustrophobic and all that mess… That may give the busybodies who want to teach your horse to tie…enough of a toy and distraction that they leave you be.

All of mine tie, they do have to know how to do that to live here. BUt if that mare I referenced above was to live here, that’s fine, I’ll work around here- she’s not mine to fix or be pissy about. But I’m not bothered if others don’t live the same way, no tsk tsk tsk from me. Me, I would worry about leaving a horse on a trailer with his window open …and they would worry about their horse sitting back and breaking loose from being tied to the outside of the trailer…just different, not right or wrong…just different;)

[SmartAlex]

[QUOTE=MXL;5338371]
Thanks, again, for responding. Just so I have this image in my head straight. The one side, the horse is attached (should be no biggie, since s/he has been trained to tie). The other side: the lunge rope hooks to the halter and goes through the other tie ring (but you’re standing on the side where the horse IS tied or on the other side [or maybe it doesn’t make a difference?]). Sorry to be so concrete, but where are you standing in this scenario? Again, I appreciate your time–I’ve got a couple of youngsters that need to be taught how to stand in cross ties![/QUOTE]

I start by holding the second tie, then progress to running it through the second ring. You begin by standing next to their head where they are used to seeing you, then gradually move away, busying yourself with grooming them until they are secure enough to tie. Then stay with them with a third rope thrown over their back until they are secure enough for you to step out of the area for a few minutes.

[The_Centaurian]

[QUOTE=Auventera Two;5338344]
Some horses may truly have a screw loose and never be trainable but those are the types that generally can’t do anything without freaking, and it’s not just limited to tying.[/QUOTE]

Yup. I would be willing to bet that a lot of the confirmed pullbacks also have other health problems, vices or hangups (ulcers, cribbing, weaving, fear of other horses, whips, bridling, etc.) Teaching them to accept the stresses of life calmly is enough of a challenge without adding a potentially dangerous tying session to the mix.

It would have been nice if someone had taught these animals to tie quietly as young horses, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s dangerous to horse and human to try to tie an animal that never learned correctly.

[GallopHer]

For those who use baling twine, can you use the newer synthetic types of baling twine? I don’t often get hay baled with the older, more natural fibered baling twine anymore.

Thanks.