"Puppy Paws" and other faults that make you crazy!

[Dutchmare433]

[QUOTE=angelssix;n10659602]

I guess this is what I am getting at. The crux of the issue isn’t just about the hands, it’s the failure to require people to correct issues before allowing them to move forward. I know that debate has been held here before, so I won’t bet a dead horse. I guess I just have seen so many here talk about subjects related to how Dressage has gotten where it is and I see such a mess sometimes, it makes me wonder what happened to standards?

I get it, human nature…if one instructor doesn’t let me move up because I suck, someone else will. It really is up to the judge to change that. Sadly, I think there aren’t enough who are. And I am not jumping all over judges, believe me, I respect the two I know. Both of them are adamant about the proper position of hand, leg, and seat, amongst other things… I would love to see how they are marking people on tests.

I guess this might tie in a little with the thread about equitation in Dressage. I feel like we do need it. Instead of movements at levels, how about we start making sure the rider can actually do their job, first?

@MsM:

My definition for Puppy Paws: The rider holds the hands high with the backs facing more upwards. The wrist is “broken” and the fingers often lax. The result looks like a begging dog.

While there are good biomechanical reasons behind most position requirements, they are not absolutes. Some need to vary due to personal or horse constraints, but this should be a conscious choice, not from habit or a lack of control. And we see variation even among top, accomplished riders. Charlotte DJ tends to ride with her elbows straighter and more in front of her than is usually considered “correct”. Works for her!/QUOTE]

This is exactly what I mean by puppy paws, thanks!

At any rate, I know there was a thread about equitation in Dressage. I think we need to have an equitation component. If Dressage is all about training the horse, shouldn’t the rider have a certain competency level before being about to train a horse? That would include, in large part, a proper equitation component.

There is Dressage Seat Equitation. A group class for Juniors and AAs. You can even get different awards based on scores. They have been getting more popular over the years, at least in my region.

It’s not up to the judges to teach, they’re in fact not supposed to give comments that way.

[angelssix]

@Dutchmare433

There is Dressage Seat Equitation. A group class for Juniors and AAs. You can even get different awards based on scores. They have been getting more popular over the years, at least in my region.

It’s not up to the judges to teach, they’re in fact not supposed to give comments that way.

I realize that it isn’t up to the judges to teach but to correct. If every rider was to be marked down repeatedly for the same thing, do you not think that instructors and coaches would take notice?

[Scribbler]

@Willesdon

I’m not trying to be inflammatory, it is a genuine question: how is it possible to school a horse correctly if it is not being ridden correctly? How can dressage be all about the horse and not about the rider?

I agree. However the judging rules reward effective riding to get the performance out of the horse. I see many riders at all levels who lean back outrageously to sit the trot, who have arms straight and hands low, and who have busy floppy legs. I also see riders whose schooling is essentially Crankenspur and these position faults sync with the training style.

So I agree that correct riding and schooling go together. However I see alot of incorrect of both and it is functional in local competition.

[angelssix]

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Someone must have heard me, LOL!

https://www.facebook.com/Rider.Biome…type=3&theater

[KBC]

Back in the days when we had just disembarked from the Arc and Noah gave riding lessons in his spare time, I was taught that my fingers should be ‘greasy’ from being in contact with the horse, “hands down” and most definitely puppy pawed, LOL, a mark of pride to turn your hands over after a lesson and see the mark from distal to proximal :lol:

Then Noah saw the light, and suddenly we were turning our hands over and just the bottom of the pinky finger got dirty from contact with the horse.

While wondering where these notions came from, and how the heck we managed to accomplish anything with hands firmly on neck, they do remain rooted deep in there. It’s hard to change what you are originally taught, and while I quickly abandoned keeping hands down that much as being totally impractical, the puppy paws were there to stay, and al, through my unlessoned years I made sure the habit was fixed firmly.

[Rerider54]

I have been taught to ‘hold baby birds’… soft enough not to squish them, not loose enough to allow them to fly away, still so they don’t get motion sick and upright so they can see where they are going. Without leaning. I have also done a lot of running and had a coach give us all paper cups of water to jog with, same idea.

BUT… do I always do the correct thing. No.

As for what you see from trainers or people showing. If I was perfect I might be better positioned to call out others. What I find difficult to watch is jouncing the horses mouth no matter how perfect the riders hand position is. Equitation is important but it cannot be static or independent of what is going on with the horse. Since I have seen videos of me at home and at shows I know that I ride more correctly at home. I hope I am not annoying too many people at shows and that they understand that I get nervous and tighten up at shows.

And I think I may have had a few lessons from Noah… but my favorite memory was when the press slammed Princess Anne for coming off her horse on a cross country ride. THE HORSE FELL! What was the Princess supposed to do, float through the air till the horse stood up again?

[Scribbler]

@angelssix

So, as an adult rider that has not ridden as a child, I have had a steep learning curve. I have learned more bad stuff in the 8 years or so I have been around horses. But I have also learned some amazing things as well.
One of my biggest pet peeves is how people hold the reins. I am so tired of hearing my instructor say “close your fists around the reins”. Why is it that people like to “puppy paw” or, as I call it, “paddle” the reins?
If you are holding the reins correctly, wrists should be in line with lower arms, and thumbs holding reins between pointer and thumb. All of your other fingers should be closed, but softly, in order to influence the reins with a squeeze when needed.
I see people who have been riding for years riding horses with their hands open, and backs of their hands up instead of out, and wrists bent. It drives me crazy.
What makes people do this??

I should add that the farther you go with your own equestrian education, the more things you will see other people do that are NQR or flat out wrong.

At a certain point you just have to focus on yourself, your coach and your horse and not really worry about anyone else
”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹But also keep in mind that riding is complex and if you are evaluating or comparing riders there are numerous metrics.

There is position of course. But there is also innate balance and sticky seat. There is tact and reading the horse. There is effectiveness and the will to get 'er done. There is physical courage and energy. There is having a good tool box for problem solving.

If you are comparing multiple riders of similar age, you’re going to find one person who has effectiveness and courage but not alot of tools, another one who is less brave but has excellent tools and horse sense, another one who has a lovely seat and position but no real problem solving skills. Older pro riders especially can lose posture without losing effectiveness as a trainer. And some young adults or juniors out of good lesson programs can have lovely form but absolutely no idea how to train a horse to do anything.
”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹
In other words you need to look at the whole rider and see whether one position flaw is indeed having a detrimental effect on the whole picture. If they fixed that flaw would the horse go much better?

”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹

[the_sandiest_shoes]

@Scribbler

Many dressage coaches spend the lesson concentrating on how the student can school the horse and do not give much equitation advice. Especially once the rider has reached a certain level of competency and has their own horse.

My dressage coach is a stickler for equitation and position but I ve learned that’s unusual.

My fav part of my current coach is how much of a stickler she is for fixing my positioning - and not surprisingly, when she gets me more effective in my body, the horse’s issues get “magically” fixed as well!!

[MissAriel]

You are fortunate to have begun your riding experience with a good coach and fewer bad habits than the rest of us!

I have also become much less critical of others as I have developed my own physical issues that have had a negative impact on my riding. I also find it is much easier on my mental health to assume everyone else is doing the best they can with what they’ve got.

[SuzieQNutter]

I was taught to curl my hands in like a kitten. 35 years later and what finally got me over not going back to that was not drilling it, not hours in the saddle, not instructors telling me to fix it thousands of times, but self hypnosis.

Palms and fingers down we call pram pushing.

[angelssix]

@Scribbler

I should add that the farther you go with your own equestrian education, the more things you will see other people do that are NQR or flat out wrong.

At a certain point you just have to focus on yourself, your coach and your horse and not really worry about anyone else
”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹But also keep in mind that riding is complex and if you are evaluating or comparing riders there are numerous metrics.

There is position of course. But there is also innate balance and sticky seat. There is tact and reading the horse. There is effectiveness and the will to get 'er done. There is physical courage and energy. There is having a good tool box for problem solving.

If you are comparing multiple riders of similar age, you’re going to find one person who has effectiveness and courage but not alot of tools, another one who is less brave but has excellent tools and horse sense, another one who has a lovely seat and position but no real problem solving skills. Older pro riders especially can lose posture without losing effectiveness as a trainer. And some young adults or juniors out of good lesson programs can have lovely form but absolutely no idea how to train a horse to do anything.
”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹
In other words you need to look at the whole rider and see whether one position flaw is indeed having a detrimental effect on the whole picture. If they fixed that flaw would the horse go much better?
”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹

You always know just how to say things, I love that about you!

@MissAriel

You are fortunate to have begun your riding experience with a good coach and fewer bad habits than the rest of us!

I have also become much less critical of others as I have developed my own physical issues that have had a negative impact on my riding. I also find it is much easier on my mental health to assume everyone else is doing the best they can with what they’ve got.

I am honestly not trying to be critical, apparently, I came across that way and it was not my intention. I am the kid who always asks “why” and then, of course, “why not?”

I never assume or get predisposed to the notion that there is only one way to accomplish anything. I do, however, love to incite discussion, even if it does bring some discourse. I feel like it is an effective way for me to grow as a person. I don’t take things quite as seriously as I had when I was younger, believe me. I was always a stickler for the rules.

But one thing that always strikes me watching other people’s lessons is that I see the positional flaws and think: “why did she tell me to fix XYZ, but isn’t telling anyone else to do that?” Is it because she is hoping it will work with me, or has she perhaps given up trying to get some riders to fix things they obviously won’t?

Again, just a discussion here. I am certainly not saying I am perfect in any way, I am just trying to learn, understand, and grow.

[TKR]

I’ve always believed that a rider is only fully effective if they achieve the correct position that is maintained during the ride. Thus conveying the proper aids and signals to the horse. I know that is a bit idealistic, but isn’t that what we all seek to achieve and when we do, we find that euphoric feeling of accomplishment and a happy horse. I don’t think the rider should solely depend on the instructor to continue correcting the same mistake for days or weeks or months on end. It seems that many students rely so much on the instructor to talk them through every situation, they take no responsibility and make no effort to make their own corrections to improve. I’m sure that is frustrating for the instructor.

[ParadoxFarm]

@angelssix

I see people who have been riding for years riding horses with their hands open, and backs of their hands up instead of out, and wrists bent. It drives me crazy.
What makes people do this??

Respectfully, to me it sort of does come across as you being critical. I am sure most folks with this habit, or another bad habit, are not TRYING to do it. They are not “made” to be doing it, it’s simply a learned, albeit bad, habit. And being one who sometimes falls into the trap of a somewhat in-between hand (not puppy paw, but not upright) I can assure you I’m not trying to make you or anyone else crazy! :winkgrin:

I mostly ride jumpers, and am starting to do more dressage, but my jumper trainer does have to remind me to keep my thumbs up. I am good for a few revolutions, and then he’ll tell me to put my right strirrup more on the ball of my foot, and guess what? I fix my stirrup only to find my hands reverting back to their “normal”. So I speak for myself when I say I have more than one flaw! So I work on them all, but I find it difficult to work on them all at the same time. And if I’m at a show…I’m even worse. But, I do, and I will continue to work on all the little things.

[Scribbler]

As far as what a coach chooses to work on with a given student, you don’t know why unless the coach tells you (which they shouldn’t unless you are a junior coach shadowing them).

A good coach will have a list of priorities for every student based on where the student is at the moment. On any given rider, any given position flaw might be the cause or the symptom of a major imbalance. A good coach will try to find the cause.

For instance, just saying heels down is no use if the real problem is rider tipping forward and leg sliding back. Puppy paws might be part of a larger problem with arms and elbows, or it might be just a slight laziness on a more experienced rider. On a very beginner rider it might be of less importance than just getting basic balance.

Interestingly I’ve lately been able to watch a number of pretty competent teens and young adults ride. I’ve mostly watched middle aged riders up to now. These young people are all very slim and there is lots that’s good about their riding. But to me there is something a bit tentative and wifty about them. I wasn’t sure if this was just that I wasn’t used to seeing the super slim teenage body any more or what. I mentioned it generally to my coach (we are on familiar terms but I didn’t want to criticize any specific girl) and she made the point that the young girls tend not to have a lot of core strength yet, children don’t really have any and teens might not yet either. Which totally made sense to me.

So in this case, the slightly tentative posture, the elbows getting pulled forward, and the occasional puppy dog paws or open hands or slipping reins are probably at root caused by not having the strength to sit in and carry the torso and hands.

I notice coach often telling them to go take Pilates, one of those bits of advice adults will follow more than most teens

[Tanny98]

@angelssix

So, as an adult rider that has not ridden as a child, I have had a steep learning curve. I have learned more bad stuff in the 8 years or so I have been around horses. But I have also learned some amazing things as well.
One of my biggest pet peeves is how people hold the reins. I am so tired of hearing my instructor say “close your fists around the reins”. Why is it that people like to “puppy paw” or, as I call it, “paddle” the reins?
If you are holding the reins correctly, wrists should be in line with lower arms, and thumbs holding reins between pointer and thumb. All of your other fingers should be closed, but softly, in order to influence the reins with a squeeze when needed.
I see people who have been riding for years riding horses with their hands open, and backs of their hands up instead of out, and wrists bent. It drives me crazy.
What makes people do this??

Yea I’m always surprised to see someone riding this way as well. That’s lesson numero uno…

[Dutchmare433]

@Scribbler

I notice coach often telling them to go take Pilates, one of those bits of advice adults will follow more than most teens

I sat one of my teenage students down a few weeks ago to talk about her fitness, both aerobic and core strength. I had been teaching her on the Ceecoach and could hear her breathing kind of hard after just warm up. She has some position flaws because of lack of fitness. (She’s tall and very thin, so I assume it doesn’t come up in gym at school.) I told her honestly that she wouldn’t be able to move up the levels or take advantage of her horse’s training until she worked on her position and got more fit–she has the natural feel and sticky seat. When I saw her two weeks later, I didn’t have to remind her about her slouching once, and I found out that she had been doing cardio and strength training every day. I was very proud and the horse rewarded her very clearly! If only my adult students who put the work in could see results that quickly.

[Scribbler]

@Dutchmare433

I sat one of my teenage students down a few weeks ago to talk about her fitness, both aerobic and core strength. I had been teaching her on the Ceecoach and could hear her breathing kind of hard after just warm up. She has some position flaws because of lack of fitness. (She’s tall and very thin, so I assume it doesn’t come up in gym at school.) I told her honestly that she wouldn’t be able to move up the levels or take advantage of her horse’s training until she worked on her position and got more fit–she has the natural feel and sticky seat. When I saw her two weeks later, I didn’t have to remind her about her slouching once, and I found out that she had been doing cardio and strength training every day. I was very proud and the horse rewarded her very clearly! If only my adult students who put the work in could see results that quickly.

Oh that is fantastic to hear! Teens can make a lot of fitness improvements fast and they are still growing so I think the improvements they do make become more permanent.

[Danvers]

never heard of puppy paws - are they the same as piano hands?

[angelssix]

@Danvers

never heard of puppy paws - are they the same as piano hands?

Yes.

[angelssix]

@Scribbler

As far as what a coach chooses to work on with a given student, you don’t know why unless the coach tells you (which they shouldn’t unless you are a junior coach shadowing them).

A good coach will have a list of priorities for every student based on where the student is at the moment. On any given rider, any given position flaw might be the cause or the symptom of a major imbalance. A good coach will try to find the cause.

For instance, just saying heels down is no use if the real problem is rider tipping forward and leg sliding back. Puppy paws might be part of a larger problem with arms and elbows, or it might be just a slight laziness on a more experienced rider. On a very beginner rider it might be of less importance than just getting basic balance.

Interestingly I’ve lately been able to watch a number of pretty competent teens and young adults ride. I’ve mostly watched middle aged riders up to now. These young people are all very slim and there is lots that’s good about their riding. But to me there is something a bit tentative and wifty about them. I wasn’t sure if this was just that I wasn’t used to seeing the super slim teenage body any more or what. I mentioned it generally to my coach (we are on familiar terms but I didn’t want to criticize any specific girl) and she made the point that the young girls tend not to have a lot of core strength yet, children don’t really have any and teens might not yet either. Which totally made sense to me.

So in this case, the slightly tentative posture, the elbows getting pulled forward, and the occasional puppy dog paws or open hands or slipping reins are probably at root caused by not having the strength to sit in and carry the torso and hands.

I notice coach often telling them to go take Pilates, one of those bits of advice adults will follow more than most teens

So now that explains a lot. When I come across as critical, it’s meant to put emphasis on WHY I don’t understand but I WANT TO so I can improve myself!

And yes, I have been told that I need to work on my core strength, and I have. It does make a difference. But so does experience and wisdom. :winkgrin: