Puppy updates and question Re: age to neuter

[seeuatx]

Hi all! Been so busy the last few months I haven’t been on to do puppy updates. We ended up on the name Smokey (after rewatching the movie Friday and BF wanted to name him Deebo. We settled on Chris Tuckers character). He is doing great, if very firmly in naughty puppy phase but at least he is cute while doing it. He’s smart and does well at his home training, we are waiting for a puppy class to get enough people with our trainer. In the meantime he goes to doggy daycare once a week to be around other puppies and give Jazzy a break. They get along well and play hard but respectfully and jazzy often instigates the play. She will tell him when she is done and I only run interference when he is not listening to the signals. Often they cuddle up with each other these days and Smokey would happily sleep on her anytime she will let him.

But now we are in that fun age at 6mos where he is starting to discover he is a boy. And I’m struggling to decide when the right time for his surgery will be. He is the first dog I’ve ever had the option to wait (not dictated by rescue, circumstance or already done) and I have read some things saying a year +. Vet says anytime 8-12 month (6mo if we were having issues). He will have to take a break from doggy daycare if not done by 8mo. So far we have only had a few minor attempts to hump, but easily corrected and redirected, no more significant issues. I also worry to keep him contained during his recovery when it is done (he is crate trained but can vary between VERY high terrier energy and LAZY couch lump). So what is the consensus on what age to neuter, or is there even a consensus? Should I wait longer or plan for close to 8mo?
Photo Tax included:

[LookinForSpace]

For your dog’s health based on a number of studies (I’m not digging up links now, but there’s PLENTY available on google), wait 18-24 months. And find a new vet, who keeps even remotely up to date on current (well, more than the past FIVE years or so!) research.

[Mouse_amp_Bay]

As late as you can, without running into behavioural problems.

My vet keeps upon current research. For large breeds, he is now recommending 2 years. Of course, if you start having problems get him neutered sooner.

[mommy_peanut]

Agree with the others on waiting as long as you (responsibly) can.

As for humping or other behaviors that are often associated with being intact.
Most have nothing to do with that.
Humping is simply a dog being over excited (not sexually).
This is a training issue, not a neutering issue.

[Mosey_2003]

I’m another that will chime in on as long as you can, 24 months if possible. Males especially there is very little risk to waiting and it’s very beneficial for them to fully finish maturing before losing their hormones - stuff like joints/tendons/ligaments plus some cancers too, they’ve now shown.

[DiamondJubilee]

I 100% agree with all others here. As long as possible. Wait for him to finish growing before fixing. It depends on breeding/size, as smaller dog mature earlier than larger dogs. For a smaller dog, I would say a year, around 18 months for med/large breeds and 24 months for giant breeds.

Its actually in my contract for my giant breed dog to not have her fixed until she is 2 years old or they will void their contract. My vet is on the same page as me and does not want to fix her until she’s at least had her first heat (she is 11 months and has not gone into heat yet). I’m going to wait as long as possible (I’ve never had a dog in heat before as we have always fixed at 6 months!) and as long as she is good, I plan on waiting until she is 2 years old.

There is so much new information on later fixing and all of the health benefits of waiting. Your dog and your potential vet bills will thank you in the end.

I also want to add, if you are having a lot of issues with his behavior not having him fixed or don’t think you can keep him from breeding other dogs, do fix him earlier. I have a female and live on a farm without any other dogs, so its pretty easy for me to not have any interaction with other dogs.

[moonlitoaksranch]

I agree with everyone, in general. However, bully beeeds have strong tendencies toward dog aggression. It’s a careful balance. If he shows any change in behavior during his break from doggie daycare when he gets to 8 months, get him neutered. You might not have the luxury of waiting too long because their brains change and mature a lot between 12-24 months. He might not be able to go back to group play with other dogs.

[goodhors]

@DiamondJubilee On your female, not sure what breed she is. If a hairy breed, keep her vaginal area trimmed short. When she comes in season her vagina is more open, longer hair can contaminate her there to cause pyometra, a uterine infection. This infection is life and death, needs to be treated immediately! She may act dumpy during or after being in season, have pus coming out of the vagina as things to notice.

We almost lost a dog to this, our first encounter with this issue. I did get her in to the Vet, who said spay her now or bury her tomorrow!! She survived the surgery but it was very close.

Since then we keep the hairy dogs trimmed quite short back there! Ours was also a large dog, did not come in season until 14 months, but late first heats seem common in our breed. Our other females have mostly come in heat at about 1 year old.

Older unnuetered female dogs can also have this pyometra infection problem as vaginal muscles get loose in heat and more slack with age, even with much shorter hair.

[CuriosoJorge]

@LookinForSpace

For your dog’s health based on a number of studies (I’m not digging up links now, but there’s PLENTY available on google), wait 18-24 months. And find a new vet, who keeps even remotely up to date on current (well, more than the past FIVE years or so!) research.

Bless your heart. There’s a very high level of inherent bias in all of “current research” you mention. Don’t worry, I have “kept up” and read the papers. I just understand the inherent logic flaw in expecting people who didn’t care enough to have their dog spayed or neutered to majically care enough to reliably report their dog’s mammary adenocarcinoma, their osteosarcoma, or their torn cruciate ligament. Unless you’re part of the fancy, there is a very good chance that if you own an intact pet, it’s behind on preventative care and doesn’t see a vet as frequently as it should. Bias. Intact pets look healthier because we don’t see them as often, or ever.

OP, the primary care veterinarian who knows your circumstances, knows the dog in question, and will be performing the surgery is the best resource for the timeline for this, NOT strangers on the Internet, no matter how well meaning they think they are.

[CuriosoJorge]

@goodhors

Keep her vaginal area trimmed short.

Pyometritis is caused by cystic endometrial hyperplasia, a change at the cellular level that’s caused by chronic estrogen exposure. It makes the cells that line the uterus more prone to infection. Clipping the hair away doesn’t prevent CEH. It also has nothing to do with age related laxity. Damn, I wish I could have avoided all those 3am pyo spays over the last 15 years if those bitches had just done their kegels!

Again y’all, talk to your actual veterinarian, not strangers on the internet.

[goodhors]

What I related was what I heard from three seperate Vets, on different occasions, years apart. Perhaps they considered me unable to process your explanation, because none related a special reason in the dogs for getting it. Just the relaxed vaginal area. The long hair vs short/trimmed hair, would carry more dirt, be more able to rub/touch the relaxed vaginal area to introduce germs.

With any luck, Diamond Jubilee has a short haired dog so my information was unneeded!

[DiamondJubilee]

@goodhors - thank you for the info! She is a Greater Swiss MD so has fairly short hair. My vet did say to keep an eye on her as she has a partially recessed vulva and can get yeast infections and or UTI’s easily. He said to just watch her and if I notice anything, to keep the area clean and dry which may mean to wipe her every time she pees. Thank goodness nothing so far, but I will see once she goes into her first heat.

@CuriosoJorge - I do agree with you and your vet should be discussing the pros and cons of early/later spaying. I have had this discussion with my vet when my pup got her rabies at 6 months and would encourage others to do so. I’m sorry to hear that you have found people that tend to hold off on fixing don’t tend to see their vets often. I personally go to my vet 2 x a year for bloodwork, check ups and fecals, even when there are no issues. I would like to prevent any potential health risks as soon as possible. My vet wanted me to wait for spaying with my girl until she has at least had her first heat since she is a giant breed. He did explain to me that for her, she would have a higher risk of ACL tears and abnormal growth to her larger legs bones as they would grow faster if I spayed her before she was done growing. I was actually told this by 2 different vets that I went to, and that it was also better to hold off on a spay due to her recessed vulva as it could fix itself after her first heat. If she was spayed earlier, it would be permanent. Urinary incontinence is also a high risk in Swissys and early spaying can also bring this on - but of course it can still happen even with a later spaying, just less of a risk then. I especially like to get blood work and a through checking of my girl as I do feed a raw diet and do not like to use a feed through flea/tick/heartworm as her breed is very susceptible to seizures. So I want to make sure she is negative to heartworm (very uncommon in Ontario) and that her bloodwork is ok and that I’m not missing anything there. I’m not suggesting everyone should do what I’m doing nor do I recommend it, but my vet is aware of my care and we have discussed the pros/cons and I would tell others to do the same with their vet/dogs. We are not all the same nor does everyone have the same lifestyle.
My parents have a 1 year old mini aussie that they have not neutered yet. They are having training issues and the first thing I said to them was to neuter him as I’m sure they will have a much easier time with him. My mom wanted to wait until he was 2, but to be honest, early neutering in my opinion would be best for him. I did tell her to speak with her vet first of course, but that was my suggestion. My BIL also had a husky that was giving him training issues and he neutered at 6 months. It was also the best decision for him as he was much easier to train/handle afterwards. All individuals are different and this discussion is best with your vet.

[CuriosoJorge]

I stopped reading at raw diet. Take your Salmonella elsewhere.

[Mosey_2003]

There’s no need to be so abrasive.

[S1969]

I wouldn’t make a decision based solely on humping as being a behavior to avoid. Because I agree that lots of neutered males and females hump and it is not related directly to being intact.

Yes, you should wait “as long as possible” - which means as long as you can avoid negative behaviors associated with hormones in male dogs – meaning fighting, aggression, and potential to get loose/wander and breed an intact female.

But of course, neutering does not necessarily prevent fighting and aggression. So…you have to weigh all the factors.

I would definitely wait at least 12 months. If you are not experiencing specific issues that need to be addressed, I would wait 18 months or longer.

[Jenerationx]

Neutering statistically increases aggression and fear reactions. I would not recommend neutering for behavior issues. It also increases the risk for several forms of cancer. If the goal is sterilization, you can look for a vet to do a doggie vasectomy rather than remove the testicles.

Neutering Causes Behavior Problems in Male Dogs

[mommy_peanut]

@CuriosoJorge

I stopped reading at raw diet. Take your Salmonella elsewhere.

WOW
Take your condescending attitude elsewhere

[ET_s_Home]

@CuriosoJorge

I just understand the inherent logic flaw in expecting people who didn’t care enough to have their dog spayed or neutered to majically care enough to reliably report their dog’s mammary adenocarcinoma, their osteosarcoma, or their torn cruciate ligament. Unless you’re part of the fancy, there is a very good chance that if you own an intact pet, it’s behind on preventative care and doesn’t see a vet as frequently as it should. Bias. Intact pets look healthier because we don’t see them as often, or ever.

Where are you located that you never see intact dogs?? Talk about bias. So if you see me walking down the street with my intact male, will you assume he is behind on preventative care or doesn’t see a vet?

[Mosey_2003]

@ET_s_Home

Where are you located that you never see intact dogs?? Talk about bias. So if you see me walking down the street with my intact male, will you assume he is behind on preventative care or doesn’t see a vet?

Right? I’m not “in the fancy” and my intact male has seen the vet this year for heartworm test, vaccines and annual checkup, and a lepto booster (3 separate visits)… And have next year’s visit’s planned out already to schedule in January…

[S1969]

Exactly. Especially now when vets are recommending that even pet owners wait to alter their pets until 18-24 months.

I mean, of course, it all depends. There are parts of the country where it’s common to see intact animals roaming - that doesn’t happen in my area. In those cases, maybe you can make blanket statements that the reasons they are intact is less about health and more about not actually caring. But in a bulletin board situation, it doesn’t work.