Purina Outlast users, talk to me ...

[Lieslot]

To those of you using Purina, what are your experiences, horse better, not sure, same?

And why use Outlast vs say 15 Tums prior to a ride.

My horse is on Outlast 4x a day, and I start to question if it’s actually making him worse.

He’s been on it for over 4 months.
He was scoped 2x during this time, the internal med specialist said the lack of squamous ulceration could be attributed to the use of Outlast, hence I was told to continue, however he had very bad pyloric, duodenal & hindgut ulcers whilst on, which healed with Sulcra & Miso.
He’s off the meds, only on Outlast and Vitalyze, glutamine & boulardii, but I’m wondering if there could be a downside to the use of Outlast.

Is there any rebound effect with Outlast? Anyone aware of such.

I’m almost wondering if I should try NeighLox or U-gard for a while, but I don’t want to mess with the unknown.

[Scribbler]

I understand that anything that alters the acid balance of the stomach can have a ripple effect, and a negatively impact the hindgut because reducing acid alters the digestion process.

That said, I don’t see any magic ingredients in Purina Outlast, other than alfalfa and a calcium boost.

https://www.drugs.com/vet/purina-outlast-gastric-support-supplement.html

I would think that if you were feeding a flake of alfalfa hay a day, the Outlast would be a meaningless contribution to the diet.

[JB]

Because Outlast works IN the stomach, it doesn’t cause any systemic changes in acid production, there’s nothing to wean off of.

Outlast is proven to raise the pH for up to 4 hours,

I’ve not yet found a study that shows that calcium carbonate can approach that length of acid reduction.

[Scribbler]

@JB

Because Outlast works IN the stomach, it doesn’t cause any systemic changes in acid production, there’s nothing to wean off of.

Outlast is proven to raise the pH for up to 4 hours,

I’ve not yet found a study that shows that calcium carbonate can approach that length of acid reduction.

How would it compare to just feeding alfalfa?

[joiedevie99]

My understanding is that Outlast can reduce the ph of the stomach for 4-6 hours from one dose. Tums will last less than an hour.

I know quite a few people who have had a lot of success with Outlast as mainenance after treatment. That said, it didn’t work for my horse. He’s currently doing his second round of treatment and we’ll try something different for maintenance this time.

[Lieslot]

Thank you,
Would I be doing wrong if I continued 4x day Outlast and 15 to 18 Tums prior to a ride, to see if such helps. Would this risk acid rebound?
I really don’t know what to try anymore.

Joiedevie99, any idea what you’ll try for maintenance?
What are you treating with at present and noticing a difference?
I feel lost over this. During Miso & Sulcra treatment I didn’t even think his demeanor improved a lot, hence I suspected upon 2nd scope he wouldn’t be healed, but he was, except for some irritation/inflamation, but no ulceration

Scribbler, no idea how long alfalfa buffers the stomach, my horse gets 3 flakes a day, spread throughout the day, he also gets FibreBeet (= Speedibeet + alflalfa) and he get an alfalfa pellet soap and TC Alfa-lox.
All of this spread about 4 to 6 hrs apart, slightly longer at night. I don’t see how I can add in more alfalfa.

Could anyone explain to me in laymen’s terms acid rebound, which meds/sups pose a risk and how to prevent such, thx!

[Texarkana]

For what it’s worth, I have one ulcer-prone horse who does get “worse” on a lot of traditional ulcer treatments. Two things I noticed her having particular problems with were ranitidine and aloe vera juice (in separate instances, not at the same time). Both resulted in marked negative changes in behavior and appetite.

Regarding my Outlast experience, I did try Outlast with one of my other horses. A lot of people have great results. I can’t say I saw any change with that horse. I only bought one bag and moved on once that bag was done.

[tulachard]

It really works for my horse - even better than just straight alfalfa. My guy gets ulcers due to weather changes, vaccines, deworming, lessons, etc. So, I was really happy to find that Outlast works for him so I could take him off the daily PPIs (except for shows / traveling). I give him a serving before I ride.

He also gets a feed that is alfalfa / beet pulp based, flax seed, and a flake of alfalfa a day. It seems his magic supplement formula for a happy stomach is Ezium (magnesium), SmartDigest Ultra, vitamin E, and Outlast. For me, it’s well worth the $35 a bag.

[JB]

@Lieslot

Thank you,
Would I be doing wrong if I continued 4x day Outlast and 15 to 18 Tums prior to a ride, to see if such helps. Would this risk acid rebound?
I really don’t know what to try anymore.

Like I said earlier, there can be no rebound if you are not altering the production of acid, either in its quality (ie causing higher pH on production) or its quantity (which is what ranitidine and omeprazole do, lower output volume)

Outlast and antacids don’t do anything to the acid that’s coming into the stomach, they only act on what’s in there already

I don’t think adding antacids to that amount of Outlast is going to gain you anything, not when Outlast is doing its job for a good 4-ish hours. Give the Outlast at or right before you start grooming to ride. You may not even need to give it any more often than that.

Could anyone explain to me in laymen’s terms acid rebound, which meds/sups pose a risk and how to prevent such, thx!

Proton Pump Inhibitors (PPIs) like omeprazole and esomeprazole, and Histamine Blockers (H2 Blockers) like ranitidine are things that alter the acid that’s coming into the stomach Any time you force a reduction in that, and then cold-turkey stop, the body is likely to get overzealous in ramping up production again, and that’s the rebound effect you want to avoid. Mitigating that means weaning off those meds, tapering down the dosage over time, so that the body doesn’t suddenly feel like it’s got to produce more acid at mach speed.

Scribbler, no idea how long alfalfa buffers the stomach, my horse gets 3 flakes a day, spread throughout the day, he also gets FibreBeet (= Speedibeet + alflalfa) and he get an alfalfa pellet soap and TC Alfa-lox.
All of this spread about 4 to 6 hrs apart, slightly longer at night. I don’t see how I can add in more alfalfa.

Alfalfa works in multiple ways. Its stems require more chewing (which is one reason you don’t want heavy leaf dairy quality alfalfa) which generates more saliva. Then its mineral content further buffers stomach acid. But that only really lasts for as long as the alfalfa is in the stomach, and then a short period beyond that before more acid production starts lowering the pH again.

So, having some decent amount of alfalfa (flake = decent) a few times throughout the day, is an excellent way to help mitigate things for longer periods of time.

[MzCarol]

Last Dec/Jan my mare was diagnosed with pretty bad ulcers. We did the month+ of Gastrogard and then started her on Outlast at my vets suggestion. Zero problems since. She gets it in the morning and evening feeds and if I ride midday she’ll get another serving then. She’ll get an extra serving on show days, too. She also has hay(mixed grass) /grass in front of her 24/7 and she’s out of a stall more than she’s ever in one.

[joiedevie99]

@Lieslot

Joiedevie99, any idea what you’ll try for maintenance?
What are you treating with at present and noticing a difference?
I feel lost over this. During Miso & Sulcra treatment I didn’t even think his demeanor improved a lot, hence I suspected upon 2nd scope he wouldn’t be healed, but he was, except for some irritation/inflamation, but no ulceration

I’m not sure yet. Sadly, this isn’t my first go-round. He’s on 1.5 tubes of Gastroguard, 2x misoprostol, and 4x sucralfate per day right now. As soon as he scopes clean, we’ll cut the miso and start weaning down the gastrogard. One option is to keep him on Ulcergard (1/4 tube) and sucralfate for the remainder of show season. Once show season is over, I’d love to get him off the gastrogard at least and onto something like ReLyne GI or PP GI. Only time will tell whether that will keep him happy though. Fingers crossed - his 8 week scope is tomorrow.

[DoubleDown]

From my Purina training (I work for a feed store) it’s actually a type of seaweed that they have discovered that has that honeycomb structure with the calcium that helps. It’s not just like alfalfa pellets or a Tums product.

Make sure you’re feeding the right amount, we’ve had so many positive reviews of people who swear by it.

Hope that helps

[Lieslot]

Thank you all!

Okay, I get it now JB, thanks for that clear explanation.

Good luck Joiedevie99 with the scope, keep us posted.
Wow, a lot of meds he’s on.
I discussed the GG or Ulcergard longterm and the scoping vet wasn’t sold on it longterm due to his gut issues as well, plus he’s ginormous and he’d require 1/2 tube a day vs 1/4 tube maintenance-wise. Treatment-wise, he’s a 2 tube GG a day horse.

Tulachard, never heard of Ezium, will look that up, he’s on MagRestore, likely similar.

Good point DoubleDown, I was told 1 1/3cup per serving, but I’m thinking I will up this to 1 1/2cup. He’s a 1750lbs horse and actually skinny, too rib-y, vet said he’d like to see him gain some weight.

[seabreeze]

@Lieslot

Scribbler, no idea how long alfalfa buffers the stomach, my horse gets 3 flakes a day, spread throughout the day, he also gets FibreBeet (= Speedibeet + alflalfa) and he get an alfalfa pellet soap and TC Alfa-lox.
All of this spread about 4 to 6 hrs apart, slightly longer at night. I don’t see how I can add in more alfalfa.

To add more alfalfa, if that’s what you’re looking to do, keep it in front of him 24/7. Free choice.

[joiedevie99]

Thanks @Lieslot I’ll report back tomorrow.

As an aside, my vet put mine on 12 oz. of Outlast per serving, and he weighs ~1300 lbs. on the scale at his ideal weight. Yours may require more.