Purina Outlast vs Alfalfa - Gastric Buffering

[spurofthemoment]

How do we feel about feeding a grain with Outlast/seaweed derived calcium AM/PM but using forage (1-2 lbs of chopped alfalfa, for example) as a gastric buffer before rides or during times of stress (example: intermittently during a show)?

I’m mostly curious to hear what others have experienced, especially using alfalfa as a gastric buffer. Purina’s published research uses a “simulated” gastric environment.

The horse I’m considering doing this for hasn’t been historically ulcer-y and is already on a mid-tier Purina grain (thinking of switching to TC Senior Gold) supplemented with Outlast so he gets a full Outlast serving twice per day. I don’t really think to give him Outlast as a snack before rides and haven’t really noticed a difference when I do. I like the idea of keeping him as forage-based as possible with concentrated grain to ensure he gets all the vitamins/minerals necessary.

[JB]

which Purina grain specifically? Mid-tier to me makes it more likely to be higher NSC

If he’s not historically ulcery ,then I wouldn’t spend $$ on a supplement. TC Sr Gold has great grastric and hind gut support

Alfalfa hay will provide a mat that lowers splashing
Alfalfa pellets will provide faster buffering

So it’s a matter of which you prefer

@spurofthemoment

I like the idea of keeping him as forage-based as possible with concentrated grain to ensure he gets all the vitamins/minerals necessary.

He’s eating enough hay, he’s already “forage-based”

Concentrated grain really means a ration balancer. If that’s all the calories he needs, it’s perfect. If he needs more, than a regular feed is better, as long as you feed the minimum required, which is around 6lb for a 1000lb-ish horse

[spurofthemoment]

I’m a huge proponent of “just the basics” and not buying into the “luxury horse care market.” TC Senior Gold is already very luxury-type feed but feed/grain is something I would consider a “basic” for horses. I’ve fed grain to horses all my life and recognize it as an important part of equine maintenance.

All that said, simple things like alfalfa are what I would rather incorporate instead of supplements. If my horse shows a NEED for a supplement, then I don’t mind throwing money at it.

FWIW, he is currently on Strategy Healthy Edge. 5 lbs per day. The cost is nice, but I think we’ve chatted about the lack of amino acids in the GA and I’d rather have what I have want in the GA for a few dollars more.

[JB]

HE isn’t a bad feed for sure. It’s definitely frustrating to not have more GA listed.

the TCSRG is a step up, 5-6lb will be an increase in calories so just be aware of that (SRG is 1800/lb), but it does offer a more comprehensive GI support package. IIRC it takes a 4lb serving to get to a serving of “Outlast”, but if that’s not a concern, then 3lb meals is close enough

[spurofthemoment]

I’ve been adding 100g of outlast to his meals to get that “full serving” but would rather be rid of it if at all possible. The fewer the supplements, the better, both from a general care perspective and barn owner support perspective hahaha.

He’s a little ribby right now - the vet commented that he has a “winter body” but I’m not entirely sure what he meant by that. He’s about 16H, 1050 lbs (just taped him for worming), so he could put on some weight. I’m also not adverse to doing the balancer + senior gold if the senior gold ends up being too many calories. He’s a good eater, but I can’t really control how much hay he gets as he’s boarded.

He was previously on ProElite StarchWise, 6 lbs per day. 990 lbs per the vet. I stopped the StarchWise only because there was no gut support (unless there is and it’s not marketed that way).

I’ve got a true senior horse who finally put weight on with Pro Force Senior (10 lbs per day), but I’ve noticed he’s a bit more stocked up than normal. I wonder if the heavy presence of molasses in that feed is the cause. I can probably get away with feeding him less of the TC Senior Gold (8 lbs).

[tabula_rashah]

I compete in endurance and use them both but in specific ways.
My main endurance horse is a 10 year old Arab gelding- fairly easy keeper but has been treated for ulcers (his lifestyle before I got him made him the ulcer poster child)

At home, he gets 1 lb ration balancer plus 1 cup amplify along with a mix of soaked alfalfa pellets and beet pulp (about 2 cups soaked) once a day. He has free choice mixed grass hay and about 2 lbs of alfalfa. Before working or getting on a trailer, he comes into his stall and gets 1 cup of Outlast and a few minutes of eating alfalfa while I get his tack ready.

At endurance rides, he gets free choice hay (about 1/2 grass, 1/2 alfalfa) in his pen plus his regular “grain” ration twice a day. During the actual competition, he get as much alfalfa and any type of grain he wants during holds and I take a baggie of Outlast on the trail with me. Every 10 miles, he gets a big handful and then a dose of electrolytes.

[JB]

PF Sr does have molasses, but the total NSC is still just 18%, so while it may seem heavy in molasses because of when it’s added to the mix, it’s really not “heavy”.

you may be able to do 8lb of the Sr Gold, it will be interesting to try

[spurofthemoment]

I’ve come back with a question!

Do you find that long stemmed alfalfa is “better” for gastric buffering than chopped alfalfa?

I’ve been reading a few studies, and I glazed over one that indicated that long-stem alfalfa is more effective at gastric buffering because it involves more chewing and more saliva production to reduce pH.

Chopped alfalfa and long stem alfalfa run about the same price per pound where I am. I find the chopped more convenient and easier to store.

If there’s no difference you feel/know, would the dust in the chopped alfalfa be a turn off? My horse doesn’t seem to think so when I give him a little here and there.

[Amy3996]

I think this can be very dependent on the horse and the quality of the baled or chopped forage. I switched to chopped alfalfa this winter because my boarding barn cannot accommodate storage of square bales.

Tried Standlee compressed bales - hard no. The dust was choking, way beyond the usual compressed bale. The pony wanted absolutely nothing to do with it. I couldn’t justify the price for the poor quality and palatability. Same issues with the Standlee chopped alfalfa.

Dumor brand was marginally better, but not much. Finally landed on the Triple Crown chopped alfalfa (not the Safe Starch). Marked improvement in dust control, quality and palatability. He scarfs it down.

Longer stem baled forage likely does provide an advantage in terms of chew time and salivary buffering, but most chopped forage also falls in that 2” target length to be considered “long stem fiber”.

[tabula_rashah]

I generally do the long stem because other than the Triple Crown Stress Free (which is insanely expensive) he won’t eat the chopped. Dust wouldn’t bother me too much unless the horse had an underlining issue where it would be a big concern (heaves etc) and you could always wet it lightly

[spurofthemoment]

The Triple Crown chopped alfalfa is a mix - any concern there or is it more or less the same as feeding straight alfalfa?

My guy is a pig - he will eat anything.

Could I switch between long stem and chopped? I’d like to feed long stem at shows/times where he won’t have access to turnout (ex. long term bad weather) since it takes longer to chew and will keep him busy longer. Chopped is nice to pre-measure for the barn and to give before rides mixed with outlast.

[spurofthemoment]

Any thoughts on the Stress Free? Is it a nice “extra” for stressful times (sort of like feeding something like Replenimash or electrolyte water during performance times) or am I better off sticking to straight up alfalfa if my horse will eat it?

[tabula_rashah]

It has been recommended to me by more than one endurance vet who are also actively competing themselves. My guy gets some for the super high stress situations- before trailering, while camping, at holds etc. Sometimes he’ll eat it and sometimes he won’t.
On the other hand, my fatty mcfatterson mares get a handful with their supplements in place of getting grain and they seem quite happy with it
Honestly I would probably stick with the straight alfalfa in your case

[ladipus]

I feed my ulcery prone horse Purina Outlast in addition to his meals which are forage based (soaked Timothy Balance Cubes/Vermont Blend Pro/TC Naturals Golden Ground Flax& small amount Nuzu Stabul One) and I give him a bucket of Triple Crowns Stress Free Forage