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Push Ride vs. Pull Ride - Nature or Nurture?

Hunter/Jumper
#21

My two TBs are more towards the middle of the continuum. My mare is more forward by nature (she likes to go); when I have taken her hunting, she is the one prancing and fidgeting at every check. She also likes to jig out on the trail. Nevertheless, she turns into a “push me” horse with a beginning rider.

My gelding is more on the other side of the continuum, though not the kind of horse you have to kick to get moving. He loves to stand quietly in the middle of the arena and gawk at everybody going by. However, he is still reliably forward and responds well to your leg. He’s just perfect for me.

#22

This has been a very interesting discussion!

I’ve been looking for videos that will help illustrate what we’re talking about, and I think these are the closest I have:

My gelding is a “pull”/“settle” ride: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XEWba8qmuU

My sister’s mare is a “push”/“kick” ride (Ignore the “for sale” part of the video; she’s leased now). She is not as much of a “push” ride as my filly, but I don’t have any video footage of the filly. Jumping starts at 3:24: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3W96qhogJI

I think those videos show pretty well that sometimes you have to push the “pull” ride and sometimes you have to pull the “push” ride, but the horses’ overall natures are very different.

#23

I think it is a natural genetic thing in most cases. I like ones on the more sensitive/forward type because I hate feeling like I am the one carrying the horse around the course! I would say I can light one up, but mostly it is that I don’t care of they are a little hot, and I am fairly good at what people would call the classic TB ride. I rode a big 17hh TB mare for awhile, I loved riding her. They don’t have to be wild, but I like ones that more responsive to the leg. Which is funny because my personal horse is pretty dead sided, but I love him to death, he is pretty lazy on the flat, but has GO but it isn’t the sensitive TB type go. He is a QH that was a barrel horse, his go is more like an out of control tank haha :lol: Last summer I started a TB/WB cross and he was so different, he wanted you to sit way back not touch his face and was very much a kick ride.

My personal favorites are ones that are sensitive but not overly where you can choose to ride half seat or settle back as needed.

#24

I was just discussing this with someone the other day, actually! Since I’m fairly new to the sport all I’ve been on is push horses where its a struggle to try and motivate them every time I ride. Funnily enough, these were all TB’s off the track so I’ve never experienced the “hot” TB that people talk about!

However, I recently got to ride a very sensitive horse where it was definitely more of a pull ride and required more refinement and awareness in my riding which I was not used to! So after that experience, I think my ideal horse at this point in time is one who is forward, but also doesn’t get frustrated or confused by my mistakes. I don’t want to be kicking around my course, however if I accidentally do something I don’t want the horse freaking out either!

#25

I’ve had two horses of my own, so far, both OTTBs (and actually rather closely related as TBs go) and I’ve had one of each. Old OTTB was a “GO” horse. I don’t know if it was entirely nature (he was gelded as a four-year-old and put in training immediately as a h/j) or nurture, but he was VERY on the forhand and took very little leg to go.

New OTTB has mastered stopping. And not going. At all. The “SERIOUSLY? Forward walk? REALLY? Do I HAVE to?”

#26

I don’t see any answers to the actual QUESTION which is whether or not the relative reactiveness of a horse is an inherited trait. How hot a poster’s horse might be is irrelevant unless that “hotness” was something passed on by its forebears.

FWIW, I do believe it’s an inherited trait, because I’ve seen it in certain lines of horses I have trained, or know. It is most easily seen to be inherited in Warmbloods (or breeds other than TBs) because they are not trained to “run” on the track. Not all WBs are dull, non-reactive lines, and some of them are known to throw a responsive, reactive ride which is often described as “hot”.

#27

I’m reading “Commonsense Horsemanship” right now. It’s interesting to read Littauer’s insistence that collection and Dressage are bad for the jumping horse. I’m guessing some of the inability to “leave them alone” is the increasing influence of Dressage. In Littauer’s prime, riding was all about Dressage and he was fighting it…championing Caprilli and the Forward Seat…and it was successful because when I started riding in the 70s and continuing through the 80s, Dressage was a dirty word for the hunters/jumpers. But now it seems the pendulum is swinging back again and Dressage concepts have invaded the world of the jumping horse. That’s not to say that dressage (schooling as Littauer puts it) isn’t important…but the whole of it is different. We do our best to conform to the horse while in Dressage, the horse must conform to the rider. (How’s that for a tangent? :lol:)

As far as nature vs. nuture, I’m guessing that it is some of both. If a naturally quiet horse is trained to be responsive, they could easily fall into the middle area between ‘go’ and ‘whoa’ just as a naturally forward horse can be taught to settle into the middle area. They should be trained to be “stabilized” and to proceed on their own with minor input from the rider.

Perfect Pony on this board has half sister to my horse. They have a lot of similarities and I think both fall more to the ‘go’ side of the spectrum. I’ve also seen my gelding’s full sister in action and man was she similar to my horse. They were trying to event her, and knowing my horse, I was surprised. Let’s just say what they did complete wasn’t pretty and they didn’t get to finish. :smiley: There is a lot of genetics involved, but how they are trained and what they are asked to do can temper genetics, IMO.

#28

I think it’s mostly nature but nurture can instill quite a bit.

My TBX is speed bred on both sides. He has a natural tendency to “go”. When I first got him he had mainly been ridden dressage and was very forward and sensitive to the aids. He was difficult to ride on a loose rein or in a half seat and took quite a bit to get him to settle. As others have mentioned pulling or constantly nagging him to slow down just revved him up more.
I wanted him to be more of a loop the rein and half seat type of horse for trail riding and just hacking around in the ring. It took about a year of riding him in more of hunter frame with a loose rein and regular work at the half seat while in a happy mouth snaffle before he got to the point where he could lope or trot along quietly with a loop in the rein. In the winter especially it still takes awhile for him to “settle” but once he settles he is pretty quiet although never a “push” ride.

That said, the “the go” instinct is always there. He is always willing to go when I ask and if we are riding in a group on trail I have to work extra hard to keep him quiet. He will always be a “pull ride” and a little hotter in that setting.

#29

Commonsense Horsemanship is on my nightstand!

I think some of Littauer MUST be considered in light of the dichotomy of horse types at the time. TBs in hunters/jumpers and, well you remember the German dressage horse of the era… frequently their hoof weighed more than your average american TB. It was a discipline AND a type that benefited from a lot of rider support, whereas your average TB really hates the interference (not all of them, but most prefer the light touch and to let them go it alone). So littauer made sense - your horse doesn’t care to be directed by you every inch of the way and in hunters, they most certainly shouldn’t require your assistance other than minor directions, so you are better off spending your time teaching them how to truly carry themselves and maintain rhythm. If you have to consistently support them to the base of a 3’ jump, you probably screwed up somewhere along the line.

He’s got a point.

I still think that’s a great way to put the basics on a hunter, and after he has those (which if you are consistent, doesn’t take a long time), then it’s all about learning to be a more advanced kind of hunter.

#30

All i can think of when reading the thread title is slab pull vs ridge push…

#31

The mare I ride is a pull ride, or rather a “get out of my way and point me at a fence stupid human” ride. She’s hot, brave, and reactive. If she thinks the distance is 2 strides then heaven help you to put 1 in without a knockdown fight over it. She’ll get in and out neat and clean and sees no reason to change. She’s nice to ride because she jumps anything period. She can also get lazy and her reactiveness makes it easy to get suckered into the lazy behind the leg horse.

The mare I’m starting is a kick ride. She’s not very confident and about average on the athletic department. She takes a while to get something but retains it well and doesn’t fuss. I think she’ll jump if you give her a seat in the saddle confident ride and set her up to jump right. I don’t think she’ll make a brave and bold XC horse but I think she would pack safely with some leg.

On one hand I love being able to jump anything I see but I hate the spastic fit I get sometimes. Or I love the ability to sit and enjoy a nice quiet horse but will have to be accurate and vigilant to get around clean.

#32

I definately say nature.

I had (still have the TB) half-brothers out of a TB mare.

The TB is naturaly more forward. You want to go and he says how fast. He is very well balanced with a wonderfaul canter. He was never raced, but I have still felt those extra TB gears when I have asked for a gallop.

His 1/2 brother, a TB/WB didn’t even know what a gallop was. I was taking a lesson once and the trainers daughter got on the horse for awhile. The trainer asks why she has to tell both of us to ride with shorter reins. This horse would just go along in a steady canter with no interest in going faster, he always felt willing to slow down though.

Christa

#33

[QUOTE=Jaenelle;4736293]
I don’t see any answers to the actual QUESTION which is whether or not the relative reactiveness of a horse is an inherited trait. How hot a poster’s horse might be is irrelevant unless that “hotness” was something passed on by its forebears.[/QUOTE]

It IS relevant if one can determine a common trend in horses described as “pull” or “go” and horses described as “push” or stop. I’ve got a pretty decent sample just in my post–two registered TBs that are in fact pretty closely bred (both Crafty Admiral on the sire’s damline, both with Greek Game and Olympia on the dam’s side in the first four generations), both trained to race in the same state at roughly the same distances. One was a ‘pull’, one is a ‘push.’ The major difference was in how they were handled in terms of gelding (one was gelded at 2 during his racing career, one was gelded at retirement) and in how they were let down (the “hot” one was gelded and immediately put into heavy h/j training, the “push” one was already gelded and was given a few weeks off and slowly introduced to light work.)

And their race record does not reflect it–the “hot” horse was mostly unsuccessful, the “push” horse had a very successful career in the low claimers and low allowance company. If you believe in dosage, the “hot” horse was bred for distance, the “push” horse for speed. Their temperaments would suggest the complete opposite.

#34

My “push” TB was bred for distance. Hi CD is -0.25

Even so , he’s got way more pep than my “push” WB who is very refined…although closest TB is 5 generations. He’s from a “hotter” line, though.

The “push” between the two is very different, though. Both are sensitive, but the TB obliges quicker and easier. He also reacts more strongly to reprimands whereas the WB is like “huh? I don’t get it.” and then all of a sudden he gets angry and “gets” it.

#35

Just to mess with your sampling, my Crafty Admiral was more the 'drag you along like a water skier" kind of ride, but I have to say I didn’t attribute it to his pedigree or dosage.

We don’t always give enough credit for the power of human intervention. For over 300 years we have been breeding TBs to race. Part of what makes a racehorse successful is the desire to GO! Sure, some are more laid back than others, some need their engine to idle a bit longer (S/P), some get in to gear quickly (B/I), but they didn’t often pass on their genes unless they wanted to GO!

My Lido Palace 3 year old is a lot like his dad who took one hell of a hand ride to win the Woodward the second time, my Erin’s Isle betrays his negative dosage by taking a while to warm up, but wants to keep on going like the energizer bunny and the Silent Cal X Crafty Admiral was a freight train, by I attribute that to the fact that he was not consulted on the career change. Probably nothing would have made him happier than to run until he wore his legs off. But he was a good sport about trying that hunter thing.

The two older horses pretty much took me to the fence and all early signs on the uber relaxed unflappable youngster still has an engine.

Not all TBs have an engine of course (Darwin had it right -there is more variation within the species than across the species), but I wouldn’t bet against it.

#36

IME training horses, I agree with the majority on it being a nature/genetic thing. Just as people, horses can be born with more go than woah (extroverted - always wanting to move their feet) versus more woah than go (introverted - prefer to move their minds rather than their feet). I’ve currently got a Dutch Warmblood cross, a Thoroughbred, and a Paint who are introverts. The Warmblood gelding is probably the ‘laziest’, but you wouldn’t know when I ride him, as I have learned how to build impulsion in him and earn his respect. The Thoroughbred never made it on the track because he was so slow and relaxed!! Don’t get me wrong, he was bred to run and does enjoy a good romp, but his desire is not so much to move his feet. Conversely, I’ve also got another Thoroughbred (successful on the track) and also a Quarab (running-bred on the QH side) who honestly cannot keep their feet still for a moment - those two love to run, with a passion!! In earning their trust, offering appropriate leadership, and teaching them relaxation though, they can be as soft and easy to ride as the Warmblood. I definitely do prefer the more forward rides though, typically, as I feel I have more to shape and work with (my new Warmblood filly is an extrovert - exactly what I was looking for!).

Training will enhance certain qualities: for example, the dull horse can be made light, responsive, and quick on its feet with good training and the extrovert can be created into a relaxed partner who has no problem standing for long periods of time (when I first brought home my extroverted TB, he had no idea what standing still was all about, lol, yet now he’ll stand quietly - relaxed - for as long as necessary). Proper training 'balances’out/‘centers’ the different personalities so that it is (relatively) difficult to distinguish extrovert from introvert: impulsion is built in the more-woah-than-go horse, and relaxation, rhythm, and looseness are built in the more-go-than-woah horse. Poor training will only exacerbate a horse’s ‘nature’. For example, riding a ‘dull’ (introverted) horse ‘heavy’ will only result in a ‘duller’ horse who blocks out the rider’s aids, while riding a high-energy (extroverted) horse ‘heavy’ will result in a horse who is too forward and is fearful/reactive. My job as a trainer is to make the forwardaholic relaxed and the lazy horse have impulsion, so that someone on the ground cannot tell the difference between my rides.

Physical conditions (such as being out chiropractically, bodysore, etc etc), disciplines (ie. doing what the horse loves or giving them a specific job), etc, can also either build or detract impulsion from a horse and thus create more woah or go in a horse too, obviously, but their personality underneath usually remains the same.

Kind of on a different-ish note, I don’t really like the terms ‘push’ or ‘pull’ either, because a rider should be doing neither. You should never be constantly pushing or nagging a horse, and neither should you be pulling on a horse.

#37

…and then there are horses that will be either push or pull rides depending who is in the tack.

My first horse was an OTTB who I got when he was 3. For me he was very much a forward horse. I don’t think I ever used spurs on him and even though I carried a crop, I rarely had to use it.

On a few occasions when I had a total beginner on his back, he turned into the pokiest of pokey horses. I put my little brother on him once and he couldn’t even get the horse to walk. It took a good kick before my brother could get the horse to walk forward. I never would got away with that. If I were riding and gave that horse a kick, I would have ended up aboard a rocket.

#38

I have two horses. Started them myself, the same year, the same way. They eat the same food, live together, get treated the same, basically their environment is identical. They couldn’t be more opposite if they tried. One is definitely a pull ride, the other is definitely a push ride. I vote for Nature!

#39

Good topic here to pop up still pertinent despite being started in 2010.

Some asking on here about how to bit or fix the same problems posted about time after time over the years should give it some thought.

#40

[QUOTE=findeight;7503298]
Good topic here to pop up still pertinent despite being started in 2010.

Some asking on here about how to bit or fix the same problems posted about time after time over the years should give it some thought.[/QUOTE]

Ah! Yes! By why pay a trainer or buy a book, when so many on the COTH patiently, or not, answer these same questions over and over.

Have you checked on Horse Care for rainrot remedies? :lol:

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