Just found out my quarter horse mare Pepper (throwback to “Tendon Injury suggestions”) suffered from a luxation many years ago and must be permanently retired at 15. For being my only horse I was expecting to be able to ride and compete in hunters… not great news at all. I’m now stuck with three horses with varying degrees of lameness that I couldn’t with a good mind send to another home. Not bitter - just disappointed. So much for the hunters helmet search! Woe is me.
Now, to the question: could a QH / Warmblood cross be registered as an American Warmblood? I’ve read up on their site and couldn’t find a clear answer. I’m well aware of the stigma surrounding quarter horses in WB circles, and I understand that the resale value of a WB cross is very low. However, I am gradually warming up to the idea of one day (ONE day - meaning a couple years or so in the future) considering breeding this mare for a personal hunter/eventing foal due to her excellent mind, movement, and conformation - taller, proportionate feet, slightly uphill, and high withers making her look more TB despite her foundation breeding. Before I get any hopes up, I want to know if the foal could be registered and have a solid future if for any reason I had to sell it.
Thanks for any help and suggestions. The bad news has put me in a bit of a cloudy mood, not to mention paranoid for any future horse purchases. Oy vey.
If she’s 15 now, I would not be looking to breed her at 2-3 or more years. It’s possible, and doable, but the chances of getting and maintaining a pregnancy for a late teens maiden starts dropping pretty quickly.
Are you referring to AWR or AWS?
Is there a reason you wouldn’t choose a QH or TB stallion to breed her to?
My question - why do you require the horse to be registered? Just for resale value only? You can accrue points within a sport association without the horse being papered.
@JB AWR. Yes. I live in Montana where downhill/stock type quarter horses reign supreme. And, to be honest, I’m just not impressed with the AQHA. I’m a bit disillusioned with the QH overbreeding and oversaturation of the equine market and the high volume of quarter horses sent to slaughter. I love the quarter horse breed, but Pepper has more obscure breeding for hunter under saddle/pleasure and is definitely not a speed event horse. And, along with Thoroughbreds, I am super wary of tiny feet. I fear tiny feet leave more possibility of having a horse that would end up crippled later in life. Thoroughbreds are very versatile and having an Appendix QH mare, I love their intelligence and eccentricities. It’s just the conformation I’m shy of for both QH and TB.
@Freespoll86 I don’t care about resale value as much as getting the horse to a good home and having the horse more likely to be able to be traced and have physical identification onhand. If the horse is registered as an American Warmblood, for example, it would have a MUCH greater chance of finding a home than having a horse sell as grade.
The reason I’m taking these precautions is I’m a poor college student that already has to afford three unrideable retirees, so if I had to let a horse go, it would be the fourth rideable horse with the most solid future. I just want to make sure I do everything I can to have a horse that’s likely be safe, sound, and happy for the rest of its life.
QH mare to approved WB stallion can be registered AWS, AWR, and with several WB registries. In all cases, it would be lower books, but with papers. I’ve seen several of these kinds of foals go through Old/NA, and RPSI. RPSI is now merged with Westfalen, so not sure what the rules will be with that new development.
I know of a few of these crosses that were very successful at the FEI level - most were registered or COP with their WB affliliated registry, but a few with AWS.
My biggest caution - make sure the lameness issues are not going to be genetic - if due to physical conformation issues - it could be passed on. And - realize that breeding is NOT cheaper then buying a young horse. It can be more expensive, although it is kind of like making payments - it doesn’t all happen at once, unlike a purchase of a horse.
You’re breeding. At this point all you’re doing is looking for a place to register pedigree, I assume? I can understand not wanting to support the AQHA out of principle, but from an “overbreeding and oversaturation of the equine market”, where you register/who you breed to doesn’t change any of that. The only reason QH’s are a high % of horses sent to slaughter is that they are the largest registry in the US. More than a few high quality WBs and TBs and other breeds have ended up on SHs as well.
And, along with Thoroughbreds, I am super wary of tiny feet. I fear tiny feet leave more possibility of having a horse that would end up crippled later in life. Thoroughbreds are very versatile and having an Appendix QH mare, I love their intelligence and eccentricities. It’s just the conformation I’m shy of for both QH and TB.
Conformation is about the individual and the pedigree, not the breed. I’m sure you are aware of the vast differences between the Foundation QH and the HUS QH, and everything in between.
It’s true that your choice of TB stallions is more limited than QH stallions. But there are more than a few excellent TB stallions, with good feet, to choose from. A search for TB/thoroughbred Hunter stallions will bring up some of those threads. For example, Noble Houston has had some amazing foals out of QH mares.
The reason I’m taking these precautions is I’m a poor college student that already has to afford three unrideable retirees, so if I had to let a horse go, it would be the fourth rideable horse with the most solid future. I just want to make sure I do everything I can to have a horse that’s likely be safe, sound, and happy for the rest of its life.
I would suggest then taking the next 3-4 years and saving up the money you would have been spending on breeding her, the extras associated with pregnancy (extra vaccinations, for example), then the cost of raising the foal (feeding, boarding if applicable, farriers, vaccinations, etc), add in 10-20% for emergencies, and then buying a 3yo.
If you really are set on breeding her, then Mystic has given registries which would accept QH blood, even if only as a COP, which is really all you will get with a QH x WB.
I saw on the RPSI site that QH mares are not eligible for any mare books, but someone correct me if I’m interpreting that incorrectly. It would mean the foal would not be eligible for registration, as I’m not certain if you could still get a COP.
Breed to the very best stallion you can afford. Of course, the breeding fee is the least of the cost of getting a foal, but don’t choose a stallion who’s only $500 even though he’s maybe not the best choice for the mare. Good stallions will cost you at least $1000, though if you are patient, you can find some early breeding special in late Summer and early Fall. I would not put off breeding her though. If you’re going to do it, do it next Spring.
Nevada’s babies out of QH mares are outstanding, and definitely registerable with the AWS. We are not breeding him anymore, but with his lighter type from about 50% TB, adding the elasticity & jump from the WB, athleticism from good sport TB lines, adding the hoof & soundness from his type, has really improved some issues with QH breeding.
I would suggest then taking the next 3-4 years and saving up the money you would have been spending on breeding her, the extras associated with pregnancy (extra vaccinations, for example), then the cost of raising the foal (feeding, boarding if applicable, farriers, vaccinations, etc), add in 10-20% for emergencies, and then buying a 3yo.
I have to agree with you on all your points. What’s attractive to me about breeding is getting a horse with Pepper’s potential and not having to stress as much about hidden injuries. However, the hassle to get a foal and how long I’d have to wait to ride is a major downside.
I’d love to get an OTTB or rescue animal in the future, and I’m not afraid of horses that need any amount of training and behavioral rehab. The obstacle I’ve encountered in looking for horses here in Montana and surrounding states is there just… aren’t any. They’re either very expensive or not what I’m looking for. I can’t justify spending over $1,500 on an animal when I don’t even have a set career path (try not to laugh at that budget haha). But I can wait. One’s bound to pop up sometime. Until then, that’s more money I can save for pre purchase x-rays.
Thank you all for the suggestions and the honesty. I really appreciate all your input. While I’d love to raise a foal out of my mare, I’m not sure it’s the right choice. If I’ve got until next spring, that’s a good amount of time to think.
Ummm, have you met breeders? :lol: You have 3+ years to worry about injuries that result in a retired horse who never got started. You’d still have to do a PPE on a 2-3-4yo you’d buy. A 3yo who “passes” a thorough PPE and has just started under saddle is unlikely to have had an injury of any significance.
However, the hassle to get a foal and how long I’d have to wait to ride is a major downside.
Breeding in '18 for a '19 foal means you won’t be riding until '22 at least. If you start saving now, you can buy and start riding a 3yo in 2020, and probably a nicer 3yo with the money you will have saved, than you will be able to breed with your mare.
I’d love to get an OTTB or rescue animal in the future, and I’m not afraid of horses that need any amount of training and behavioral rehab. The obstacle I’ve encountered in looking for horses here in Montana and surrounding states is there just… aren’t any. They’re either very expensive or not what I’m looking for. I can’t justify spending over $1,500 on an animal when I don’t even have a set career path (try not to laugh at that budget haha). But I can wait. One’s bound to pop up sometime. Until then, that’s more money I can save for pre purchase x-rays.
Where you are, you are going to have to look across the country for something to buy, whether it’s an OTTB (watch New Vocations very closely, they tend to have phenomenal animals who are represented well). There are other OTTB turnout sites who are not nearly so thorough in checking the horses, and sell “as is”, sometimes without any real evaluation. Behavior/training issues are the least of your worries - hidden track damage is a much bigger problem.
Thank you all for the suggestions and the honesty. I really appreciate all your input. While I’d love to raise a foal out of my mare, I’m not sure it’s the right choice. If I’ve got until next spring, that’s a good amount of time to think.
You’d want to be thinking hard if you want to find a nicer stallion who has an early bird discount, as those breedings are either limited, or run for a short period of time, so you’d want to have your list of 3-5 stallions who would all be excellent choices. You could start a new thread with conformation pictures of your mare, and her pedigree, to get some really excellent suggestions.
At 16, she may be an easy breed, but she could just as easily cost you several $1000 just to get and keep her pregnant on top of the stallion fees (or all that $$ and no pregnancy), so you’d want to have a $ amount already as your upper limit on when you stop trying to get/keep her pregnant.
Another thing to consider is there are breeders who offer payment plans on foals. I don’t think too many of the better breeders do that (anymore), having been burned, but it doesn’t hurt to poke around. Maybe there’s a '17 foal right now who wants to be yours.
@JB I tried not to think too hard about the horrible things a foal would be able to do to itself before it reached starting age :lol:
You’re right about saving up for 2020. By then, I’d hopefully at least have SOME reasonable life goals and be able to justify purchasing a riding horse. New Vocations seems EXCELLENT. Thank you so much for linking me up to that. It’s just what I’m looking for! The thousand dollars I’d have to scrape up for shipping would be completely fine with their adoption pricing. A previous seller I’ve looked into was Amish Treasures, but there’s no way I could justify the price tags, despite the wonderful horses.
Track damage is one of the major issues I worry about with thoroughbreds. With Pepper and Foxy’s injuries that were nearly invisible without x-rays, I’ve become super wary. The difference was with Foxy, the owner disclosed to me with full honesty her issues before giving her to me. How Pepper’s previous owners “”"“missed”"" or “”"“forgot about”""" her luxation is beyond me. Probably the same reason they “”“forgot”"" to have her teeth and feet taken care of for a few years. Heaving eye roll.
There is precisely one WB stallion in MT who, despite his awards and nice foal crop, is not the stud I’m looking for conformationally. I do worry about Pepper’s ability to maintain a pregnancy, and having to pay the vet top dollar to do so is not on the list of things I’d look forward to.
I’ll keep my hopes up! New Vocations seems like an excellent place to start - who knows, maybe I’ll be back on a horse by 2018! :lol:
Well, you need to take a realistic look at the cost of putting a baby on the ground. Let’s run some numbers…
Stud fee (let’s say you got a screaming deal at an auction or ???) $500
Shipping and collection costs, assume she takes on the 2nd time (realize it could take many more then that) $500
Vet fees, 2 ultrasounds, insemination, 3rd ultrasound at 14 days (plus ranch call), $350 each cycle, $700
Assume mare is in foal, extra vaccinations (3 Pnuemabort, plus pre-foaling shots) $200
Feeding mare for 11 months of pregnancy, with extra feed last 3 months (I’m assuming you don’t board) $1500
Healthy foal exam and IgG test, $125
Feeding lactating mare for 6 months, $1500
Feeding foal for 3 years, $3,600
Vaccines, trims, basic care for 3 years, $1900
Registration $400
Now, all of this assumes you have NO vet bills beyond basic vaccines, and you don’t even have to geld the baby. It assumes mare takes on second insemination, there are no issues in birthing, no extra drugs needed during pregnancy, no infections from pregnancy, and so on. And it assumes you don’t pay board, you are just buying hay and bedding. You’ve spend about $11,500 on your baby… I figure it takes on average about $15,000 to get a 3 year old to - 3 years. That is an untrained 3 year old that just had appropriate care for its first 3 years and a few minor vet bills.
I’ve raised 2 - one from when I got him at 5 months, the 2nd the one I bred. Both of the became quite familiar with my vet in just a few years, between a hole in the cheek (literally), a sliced leg needing stitches, infected castration incision, stick rammed into foot, and more :rolleyes: And I was lucky - none of those things ended careers, though the first one has spent more time rehabbing from injuries than in work in his life :\
There is precisely one WB stallion in MT who, despite his awards and nice foal crop, is not the stud I’m looking for conformationally.
The good thing is that you aren’t looking at live cover, and you’d really want to use fresh cooled semen, which gives you the entire US to shop in
I do worry about Pepper’s ability to maintain a pregnancy, and having to pay the vet top dollar to do so is not on the list of things I’d look forward to.
If it ends up being something you decide you really want to go for, then set that limit of $$ spent, after getting an idea from your vet on what a “one and done” try would cost - make sure she’s clean, ultrasound to see where she is, set up a short-cycle if necessary to know exactly when you will need semen if she’s not already in a place where it’s reasonably close, get her inseminated, and do the 16 day check. If she’s pregnant, awesome. If not, you can say “oh well, that was my 1 try”, or you can give it one more cycle. That keeps your costs from skyrocketing if you get set on “I WILL get her pregnant!”
I’ll keep my hopes up! New Vocations seems like an excellent place to start - who knows, maybe I’ll be back on a horse by 2018! :lol:
Shout out for New Vocations…they have the added benefit off allowing you 2 months to take the horse home, have your vet examine him and will allow you to return the horse within those 2 months if things aren’t going to work out for whatever reason and reimburse you the adoption fee or allow you to exchange for a different horse. That actually did happen to me and I adore the “replacement” horse that I ended up with
Ahhhh that’s excellent!!! Thank you! As someone with three bossy mares and 24 hour turnout I was dreading bringing home a horse that wouldn’t fit in. I’m so happy you ended up with a horse you love! Best of luck to both of you. I’ll keep an eye out and stow away some cash to adopt from them!
I bred the fanciest mare to the fanciest of stallions in 2015. Textbook breeding, pregnancy, foaling … My yearling to date has cost about $12,000 (spread out which is helpful). I call him Hopes and Dreams Baby, but secretly, I pray he is as fun as my little OTTB.
FWIW I used to ride a QH/Belgian cross, bred by one of the Nation’s top Dressage riders
He was a sneaky, spiteful beautifully balanced picky, inconsistent JERK
Sounds like my Appendix QH coughs They say it’s the most difficult horses that are the most talented, and while I won’t disagree, I’d take a kind, people loving pokeabout horse than a bratty, nasty upper level terror.
Final update on the situation: I’ve decided that I’m going to adopt a Standardbred. All the comments demonstrated I am not nearly ready for breeding (thank you! bullet dodged). And, after seeing poor Pepper in obvious pain today (probably from running amok last night), I am definitely not going to gamble gestation with her. She’ll stay a pasture puff until I have to make the decision to let her go. Which, sadly, seems sooner than later. Sigh.
