[QUOTE=Draftmare;8596660]
Those pictures were taken after I rode. That is where the saddle typically settles.[/QUOTE]
Gotcha! Does it always settle that far back, no matter where it starts?
You could go down a pad. You seem to have quite a bit of padding going on, and if its not sitting right after you ride, the issue may be your padding situation. I know the bottom one is thin and just a liner, but it does seem to add a good quarter inch of padding there and is really unnecessary, particularly if the saddle is verging on too narrow.
(And, with the padding, it might be. It sits nicely without it.)
I’d consider adding a breast-collar if things are shifting around. Keep everything a little more stable.
I don’t think you have the saddle too far forward in these pictures. The saddle is going to settle where it wants to settle. maybe you could move it back an inch or two, but again, that may be where the saddle wants to sit and you aren’t going to be able to “force” it into a certain spot.
I like to walk the horse around with the saddle setting where it wants to, and then put my hand at the tip of the horse’s shoulder blade and see what it feels like. It is “hitting” anything on the tree? Does it feel overly tight? Is there good movement?
I don’t think the saddle fit is too bad. Maybe on the right side of the horse, it might be a smidge narrow of a bar angle but it looks decent on the left side. (and your one picture where the right side is way off the horse, I am suspecting your horse moved when you took the picture to show gullet?)
Honestly, I think the saddle is fine but you should change your padding. Since the saddle seems to fit well without anything, then LESSEN your padding to about 1/2" or 3/4" (at the most). If you are over-padded, that can cause tightness in the shoulder movement.
[QUOTE=bugsynskeeter;8596706]
Gotcha! Does it always settle that far back, no matter where it starts?[/QUOTE]
Yes, that is where it settles. I was actually thinking about trying the Total Saddle Fit western cinch, but then I read a few comments on their products that the concept wouldn’t really work with a western saddle. I do have a similar designed girth for my english saddle to help keep things from moving forward.
[QUOTE=fallenupright;8596709]You could go down a pad. You seem to have quite a bit of padding going on, and if its not sitting right after you ride, the issue may be your padding situation. I know the bottom one is thin and just a liner, but it does seem to add a good quarter inch of padding there and is really unnecessary, particularly if the saddle is verging on too narrow.
(And, with the padding, it might be. It sits nicely without it.)
I’d consider adding a breast-collar if things are shifting around. Keep everything a little more stable.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=beau159;8596918]I don’t think you have the saddle too far forward in these pictures. The saddle is going to settle where it wants to settle. maybe you could move it back an inch or two, but again, that may be where the saddle wants to sit and you aren’t going to be able to “force” it into a certain spot.
I like to walk the horse around with the saddle setting where it wants to, and then put my hand at the tip of the horse’s shoulder blade and see what it feels like. It is “hitting” anything on the tree? Does it feel overly tight? Is there good movement?
I don’t think the saddle fit is too bad. Maybe on the right side of the horse, it might be a smidge narrow of a bar angle but it looks decent on the left side. (and your one picture where the right side is way off the horse, I am suspecting your horse moved when you took the picture to show gullet?)
Honestly, I think the saddle is fine but you should change your padding. Since the saddle seems to fit well without anything, then LESSEN your padding to about 1/2" or 3/4" (at the most). If you are over-padded, that can cause tightness in the shoulder movement.[/QUOTE]
This is the pad that I am currently using: http://www.ridingwarehouse.com/Toklat_Matrix_T3_WoolBack_Shim_Western_Pad-Ortho-Impact/descpage-TMWSWP.html. I tried to find the measurements of the inserts, but I don’t see them posted. I do use one of the front shims that are 1/4" to help with feeling a bit downhill when riding her. I suppose I could try the pad without anything in it and see how things look and feel. I had never considered a breast collar before because of how everything tends to always feel slid forward on her due to her being a bit downhill. I figured that a breast collar would just make things worse. I think the bottom pad looks thicker than it is because of the binding. It is honestly just a very, very thin pad.
Take the shims out. The saddle sits pretty level with no padding, I see no reason why you’d want extra padding up there saddle fit wise.
I’ve never heard of a breast-collar pulling everything forward, it just keeps it from slipping back, in my experience.
If you want to feel less downhill, get her working off her hind end and don’t let her truck around on her forehand. 
(I feel your pain, my gelding is now only 1" higher at the back than the front… he spent most of last year 2-3" higher at the back!)
[QUOTE=fallenupright;8597158]
Take the shims out. The saddle sits pretty level with no padding, I see no reason why you’d want extra padding up there saddle fit wise.
I’ve never heard of a breast-collar pulling everything forward, it just keeps it from slipping back, in my experience.
If you want to feel less downhill, get her working off her hind end and don’t let her truck around on her forehand. [/QUOTE]
Big ditto! 
Tritto(?).
I think that saddle fits very nicely. I’ve been told by a number of saddle fitters that trying to get your hand under the saddle when you’re sitting in it is ridiculous. If it feels good when it’s on with no/lite pad and cinched (i.e. no pinching at top or bottom of tree points, no significant bridging, no tipping forward or back) that that’s your indicator.
I also like to lunge the horse with a very thin pad and the saddle girthed to see if the back is popping up or wagging when the horse trots and canters with no one in the saddle. Both of those would indicate a tree that was too wide and/or too curvy for the horse. You could also put a rider up and watch to see if he looks like he’s short striding in front or otherwise uncomfortable in the shoulders.
How thick is that pad without the shims? My gelding is probably 1" downhill and I don’t shim my western saddle. Rather I ride him more uphill.
My spotted draft mare can gain weight just looking at any kind of food…and finding a saddle that fit her correctly all the time was a real pain. Most saddles were too narrow and always slid sideways no matter how tight the cinch or how “grabby” the saddle pad was. Dangerous ride, to say the least. I finally ordered a tree from Montana Mountain Saddle based on pictures & measurements I took of her back, sides, etc. The tree arrived, then more pictures, finally they said OK send back the tree with your order and we’ll make it fit. And it does fit. Have 2 saddle pads depending on how “big” she is. The only complaint I have about the saddle is that I specifically asked they shorten the stirrups quite a bit (5 inches) because I have short legs, and they sent a saddle with Loooong stirrups that I had to take to a local saddle maker to get them shortened. Twice. Nobody believes I have short legs and ride a BIG horse. Also ordered rotating stirrups, which fell apart on a regular basis until I figured out what was wrong with the design and had them drilled and a new, longer set screw from Ace Hardware did the trick.
Bottom line; the saddle fits, it is light weight codura and easy to clean, I would probably order a nicer leather one with some silver bling if I had the $$.
I will try without the shims. I just ordered this pad a few days ago too: http://www.ridingwarehouse.com/Classic_Equine_BioFit_Shim_Western_Saddle_Pad/descpage-CEBFSSP.html. Sounds like I may be able to return it. Actually it would be pretty cool if we could ditch the shims, I have been wanting a 5 Star for a long time, but kept passing them up due to feeling the need to use something in the front. I also thought that shimming the front would help with keeping things from sliding forward, and to help her not feel like the saddle was getting pushed into behind her shoulder blades by gravity. Maybe I was wrong.
Doing a quick internet check finding an inexpensive draft sized breast collar may prove tricky! I have a Weaver nylon breast collar that didn’t come close to fitting her.
We have been working on collection and getting her to rock on to her back end, though it certainly has not come easy to us.
http://www.brubachersharness.ca/contents/en-us/d1442.html
Decent price for the draft one there. Shipping might be a bit more if you are in the US, but they are local to me and I can attest their service is good and their products are good quality. They do custom work too, for draft sized tack!
The new pad you ordered is one I have and actually really like. I used it for a while with my gelding when he was more butt high than he is now. I really like it because the shims are slanted and you can move the saddle forward and back on the pad to get the right amount of lift in the front. I did find that it kept the saddle from wedging in behind his shoulders and made the saddle feel more balanced to me. That said, I think I was more concerned about the wedging than he was. So, I would give it a try. If you don’t like it I’m sure you can sell it on TackTrader for most of what you paid for it.
And god yes, collection and reaching under from behind is a constant learning curved for us too. We’re doing dressage these days rather than reining, but the struggle is the same.
[QUOTE=UrbanHennery;8597746]
The new pad you ordered is one I have and actually really like. I used it for a while with my gelding when he was more butt high than he is now. I really like it because the shims are slanted and you can move the saddle forward and back on the pad to get the right amount of lift in the front. I did find that it kept the saddle from wedging in behind his shoulders and made the saddle feel more balanced to me. That said, I think I was more concerned about the wedging than he was. So, I would give it a try. If you don’t like it I’m sure you can sell it on TackTrader for most of what you paid for it.
And god yes, collection and reaching under from behind is a constant learning curved for us too. We’re doing dressage these days rather than dressage, but the struggle is the same. :)[/QUOTE]
Well that’s good to hear. I ordered it from Riding Warehouse so that hopefully if I keep it clean and decide I don’t need it I can return it.
The saddle pad arrived and I actually really like it. Even if I don’t end up keeping the version with the wedge in the front, I may get a different one to keep.
[QUOTE=bugsynskeeter;8596577]
The first set of pictures, with the pad, the saddle is actually a hair too far back. You want you latigo to go straight down to your cinch, not angle forward or back. The saddle looks more appropriately positioned in the second set of pictures.[/QUOTE]
But isn’t that dependent on the type of rigging? And don’t some horses have a forward girth groove - TOO far forward?
[QUOTE=lorilu;8598828]
But isn’t that dependent on the type of rigging? And don’t some horses have a forward girth groove - TOO far forward?[/QUOTE]
That is what I have always been told. I had to go with an anatomical girth for my English saddle because my horse does have a forward girth groove. I thought about doing the same with a western cinch after Total Saddle Fit came out with their girth, but was told by a few people that for western that wouldn’t work the same way for whatever reason (plus the girth is close to $200 after shipping).
You don’t need a vertical latigo. I know some people say that, but it is based on the idea that an angled cinch/latigo will pull the saddle forward. You say that the saddle settles back further than where you put it, and that causes the latigo to be angled. Guess what? The “vertical latigo” theory is not correct. Getting a breast collar to hold the saddle forward so the latigo will be vertical will cause all sorts of issues with your horse since it is position of the tree on the horse that is important. You don’t want the tree up on the shoulder blades. http://www.rodnikkel.com/content/tree-and-saddle-fitting/proper-position-of-a-western-saddle/
Well this part made me feel a bit better too:
The shoulder blades do rotate back when the horse moves. The three pieces of tape in the picture above show the farthest forward movement, the standing position and the farthest back movement at a walk. So why isn’t the muscle over the shoulder compressed between the shoulder blade and the front bar tips at maximum rotation if the bar is right behind the shoulder blade when the horse is standing? Because of two factors: 1.) The shoulder blade rotates back when the horse is moving his leg forward and there is no weight on it. 2.) There is no bony attachment between the front leg of the horse and his body. It is only held in place by muscle, and is therefore quite moveable, in and out as well as front, back and rotation. So as the shoulder blade rotates back, it can slide under the front bar tips of the tree because it is not held out from the body by bone (like human shoulders are). Because there is no weight on it, there is no high pressure to compress the muscle, and no pain or damage occurs. By the time there is weight on the leg, the shoulder blade is more upright, and therefore out from underneath the bar tip again.
Here is the saddle with the new pad: https://goo.gl/photos/J1jZK4fP8Xn4ZRm76. It looked pretty ridiculous at first, but once I had ridden for a bit looked better. I didn’t get to ride very long as a storm rolled through about four hours before predicted. But for the few minutes I was on she felt pretty good.
I get that you’re probably trying to keep the pad clean in case you want to return it but I’d get rid of the liner pad underneath. You just don’t need/want the bulk.
[QUOTE=Draftmare;8599560]
Well this part made me feel a bit better too:
Here is the saddle with the new pad: https://goo.gl/photos/J1jZK4fP8Xn4ZRm76. It looked pretty ridiculous at first, but once I had ridden for a bit looked better. I didn’t get to ride very long as a storm rolled through about four hours before predicted. But for the few minutes I was on she felt pretty good.[/QUOTE]
FWIW I think the new pad definitely makes the saddle fit better in front. The point of the tree is off the shoulder blade. The saddle looks level, no longer lifted up off the back at the end of the skirts.
Does the pad seem sturdy enough to keep it’s shape, or will the padding crush down after a month or two? You don’t want to buy a new pad every 2-3 months. But that is the direction to go in.
[QUOTE=Draftmare;8599560]
Here is the saddle with the new pad: https://goo.gl/photos/J1jZK4fP8Xn4ZRm76. It looked pretty ridiculous at first, but once I had ridden for a bit looked better. I didn’t get to ride very long as a storm rolled through about four hours before predicted. But for the few minutes I was on she felt pretty good.[/QUOTE]
Granted, pictures are pictures, but I don’t like how the right side of the saddle looks with the BioFit pad. Makes the angle look more narrow, than when you had the saddle on without a pad at all.
Classic Equine makes a good saddle pad. However, keep in mind what happens under the saddle when you add a “shim” in a single spot like that.
Have you run your hand under the saddle (with no pad) and felt all along the tree? Where there any areas where there were more pressure or less pressure? Do you really need to fill in the space with the BioFit shim?
How does that compare with the BioFit pad? Is there an area of more pressure where the shim is? Or does it still feel even?
Maybe I’m biased, but I think you should send this pad back and get yourself a 5 Star. 
I tried a friend’s BioFit pad last year (that she wanted to sell) and I set it on my horses back and that was about it!! For myself, there was just no comparison between the softness of the 5 Star, to how the BioFit felt. I knew right away I didn’t like the BioFit.
