Quarter Horses, Purpose Bred Conformation & Which Type = Natual Collection

[Just_Not_Native]

I had an earlier post asking about the different “types” of Quarter horses - purpose bred as far as conformation - for their intended use. Lots of good replies.

Going a step further, which type would be more naturally collected or able to step under themselves? Able to do dressage type movements, western or english?

Obviously, I would think that the english pleasure type but then what about barrel racing type? Usually have a wither higher than the coup and a higher head set.

Also - temperment, the QH I have seen at my barn are western and english pleasure types and seem mello.

Are any QH that are a bit hotter tempered?

Just asking to be educated as I know nothing about the breed. Thanks.

[KIloBright]

Well, running AQHA horses, which have a big TB influence, are going to be hotter, esp those bred for the track, and show TB influence in their conformation
Any athletic well build horse is going to be able to step under themselves, as collection has nothing to do with level of head carriage, and in fact, any performance event requires a horse to be able to move collected with hind end engagement.
Many cutting horses are quite ‘hot’, as are some working cowhorses, needing that ‘snap’ and quickness, and in fact, many warmbloods are in fact, quite mellow in comparison
You want a rail horses to appear 'mellow, as a quiet easy way of going is part of the total picture, desired in a pleasure horse, either HUS or western, versus some highly animated horse, strong on the bit, frothing at the mouth , and high leg action Think of conformation type becoming fixed in any given event, not selected for first, but secondary to family of horses that have proven themselves to excel in those events, thus the conformation type doing well in various events, arises out of proven ability in horses that have that build and breeding.

[aktill]

There are quarter horses bred for almost any purpose nowadays. The breed has evolved to the point of various “strains” being very recognizable, and at least their intended purpose is rarely a surprise; few who are familiar with the breed would mistake a cutter for a halter horse. Likewise, you can find temperaments from mellow to fire breathing, though on average they’re calmer than most (a trainer I worked with says most QH’s have 1 thought for every 10 an Arab does, for example).

If you want to see a magnificent picture of dressage collection, buy/beg/borrow a copy of “Racinet on Baucher”. On one of the intro credit pages, there’s a wonderful picture of a QH in piaffe that would make a lot of warmblood owners jealous.

Likewise, if you look at the sort of horses that good hands turn into real bridle horses, those will tend to be of the most athletic type in balanced way. Here, I’m defining bridle horse as a expert working animal who may or may not have shown, not just a show ring winner ridden in a bridle bit. Often those will have an almost-warmblood, hint of Morgan look to them. Very nicely set on necks (ie, not tied on low), good short loin couplings, and well structured hind ends are often the norm there.

[Plumcreek]

Jaks Artifacts is siring nice dressage horses. Not sure of temperament. His sire Indian Artifacts was known to be tough, but many, not all, of his get are not.
I would go to the AQHA website and look up the results of the over fence classes at the various World Shows. Those horses have to have the conformation you are asking about and the temperament to get around quietly. The Allocate Your Assets are in vogue and pricey, but many of them have their sire’s lofty dressage trot. These Irons are Hot seem to be uphill and good movers, but also in vogue and pricey. A Chance for Romance might fit your interests. Look these up. There is a Facebook page: ‘AQHA Hunt Seat Horses For Sale’ that gets some dressage type horses listed.

[Wormwood]

I’m no expert, but I’d think you’d want more suspension for a dressage horse than you’d be likely to find in a HUS QH or pleasure bred type… less of the daisy-cutter movement.
From what I’ve seen, as Aktill said the horses with the most natural balance and body control were good working types. Shorter coupled horses with good hind ends who wanted to push off 'em naturally.
(Also first post; hello forum!)

[beau159]

[QUOTE=Just Not Native;7910975]

Obviously, I would think that the english pleasure type but then what about barrel racing type? Usually have a wither higher than the coup and a higher head set.

…

Are any QH that are a bit hotter tempered?[/QUOTE]

I have 2 horses. Both are bred to run barrels.

Red is a grandson of Texas High Dasher (also with some Jet Deck in there) and his dam had a mix of cutting and racing. He’s my “hot” barrel horse and a go-go-go type of guy. Now, with that said, when he’s ridden on a regular basis, he can be very relaxed and easy going. But his favorite thing to do is RUN. He’s like a little kid in a candy shop when I give him the free rein to GO.

Shotgun is actually bred quite “hotter” than Red, since he is a grandson of Mr Illuminator, and his dam is a granddaughter of Country John Red (with some Laughing Boy in there). However, he’s as laid back as they come. Doesn’t even shy or spook. (Not bad for a 3-year-old)

So even though they are both “bred” for barrels, their temperments are quite different.

While they both have good conformation, they also differ a bit there. Red is a little more “compact” and he naturally has a nice little WP jog and a slow lope. He does not have that large of a stride, for being 15.2 hands. When relaxed, he’s got a pretty level headset but when’s he’s “wound up” his head can go a little higher.

Relaxed: http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/r_beau/2014%20Horse%20Pictures/2014-07-26MissouriRiverClassicplayday019-Copy_zpse9b041d2.jpg

Excited: http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/r_beau/2014%20Horse%20Pictures/2014-09-21TappenHorseShow01EggandSpoonfirstplace_zpsf407a568.jpg

My Shotgun has a pretty long neck and usually a very low headset. He usually pretty relaxed so that’s usually where it stays. He very naturally reaches WAY underneath himself when he trots and lopes. He’s only 3, so when I can harness these things better, he’s going to be a really pretty mover … and cover a lot of ground on the barrels.

Low head: http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/r_beau/2014%20Horse%20Pictures/2014-07-26MissouriRiverClassicplayday040_zps184d3884.jpg

Reaching under at trot: http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/r_beau/2014%20Horse%20Pictures/2014-07-27EdgeleySCHSA017GreenbrokePleasure-Copy_zps33bd0bca.jpg

I share all this information with you because I have 2 horses … and they are polar opposites. It is almost impossible to make a generalization about the quarter horse breed because they are all so different. Some are hot. Some are mellow. Some are good at natural collection. Some need help. It just really comes down to the individual horse and their athletic ability.

On a side note, I do think Red would make quite the dressage horse … he has been known to do a perfect piaffe … all by himself, haha. Usually when he’s snorting and has his tail in the air. Quite fun to ride and “enjoy”!

[KIloBright]

An Appaloosa was r![](dden showing Grande Prix movement, as attribute to LInda mc Carthy . The Appaloosa was the Stallion Pay and Go
http://www.pamgrace.com/Pages/PayNGo.html

On the other hand, I have a book, written by an English person, that states how even many upper dressage horses are on their forehand, and badly so
Here is a picture of an example by her
Bottom line, never generalize, and while I have no dispute that warmbloods have a niche in Sport horse competition, not all warmbloods or dressage horses are necessarily moving collected correctly, nor are there not stock horses capable of moving to Grande Prix level

[IMG]http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/KiloBright/ahow%20pictures/Form.jpg)

The book , by the way, is " realize your horse’s true potential, by Lesley Skipper

BasicaLLY, she states that there are countless horses appearing in ridden show classes and dressage competitions who may appear to be working on the bit and a nicely rounded outline, when in fact they are on the forehand…sometimes very much so

[gaitedincali]

[QUOTE=K![](loBright;7912604]
An Appaloosa was ridden showing Grande Prix movement, as attribute to LInda mc Carthy . The Appaloosa was the Stallion Pay and Go
http://www.pamgrace.com/Pages/PayNGo.html

On the other hand, I have a book, written by an English person, that states how even many upper dressage horses are on their forehand, and badly so
Here is a picture of an example by her
Bottom line, never generalize, and while I have no dispute that warmbloods have a niche in Sport horse competition, not all warmbloods or dressage horses are necessarily moving collected correctly, nor are there not stock horses capable of moving to Grande Prix level

[IMG]http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/KiloBright/ahow%20pictures/Form.jpg)

The book , by the way, is " realize your horse’s true potential, by Lesley Skipper

BasicaLLY, she states that there are countless horses appearing in ridden show classes and dressage competitions who may appear to be working on the bit and a nicely rounded outline, when in fact they are on the forehand…sometimes very much so[/QUOTE]

FYI about Lesley Skipper-
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/products/books/prolific-equestrian-author-lesley-skipper-convicted/

[SuckerForHorses]

[QUOTE=Wormwood;7911651]
I’m no expert, but I’d think you’d want more suspension for a dressage horse than you’d be likely to find in a HUS QH or pleasure bred type… less of the daisy-cutter movement.
From what I’ve seen, as Aktill said the horses with the most natural balance and body control were good working types. Shorter coupled horses with good hind ends who wanted to push off 'em naturally.
(Also first post; hello forum!)[/QUOTE]

Exactly this. I have a foundation bred/some cutting bred gelding, and he has lots of impulsion. Sometimes he has a tendency to get heavy on the forehand, but that’s a result of holes in our training at the moment. When he WANTS to use that hind end, it gets used.

As for temperament: the Peppy San Badger bloodlines are known to be buckers. There are obviously exceptions to that rule. I think the lines bred for work are more “keep you on your toes” type horses, but that’s just from my own experience. They haven’t had the brains bred out of them…yet.

[Flash44]

I think the QH breed as a whole is bred for natural collection. Most (not all) qh disciplines demand a high degree of agility and collection, although not necessarily the free, forward movement of dressage. Correct conformation and a low set hock enables them to achieve this function. If you are looking for the big, forward dressage movement, then the HUS and fences bred horses are probably going to get you closer to what you are looking for. The barrel horses and english horses and race horses usually have more TB in them than some of the stock types and pleasure types. Of course, there are exceptions.

[Wormwood]

[QUOTE=SuckerForHorses;7912807]
Exactly this. I have a foundation bred/some cutting bred gelding, and he has lots of impulsion. Sometimes he has a tendency to get heavy on the forehand, but that’s a result of holes in our training at the moment. When he WANTS to use that hind end, it gets used.

As for temperament: the Peppy San Badger bloodlines are known to be buckers. There are obviously exceptions to that rule. I think the lines bred for work are more “keep you on your toes” type horses, but that’s just from my own experience. They haven’t had the brains bred out of them…yet.[/QUOTE]

Hah, I had no idea Peppy San’s were buckers. Mine wasn’t, but then she was super sensitive and had her own issues. Someone told me once anything Hancock or Blue Valentine was going to have a bucking streak.
Anyway, getting off topic, haha!

[SuckerForHorses]

[QUOTE=Wormwood;7913682]
Hah, I had no idea Peppy San’s were buckers. Mine wasn’t, but then she was super sensitive and had her own issues. Someone told me once anything Hancock or Blue Valentine was going to have a bucking streak.
Anyway, getting off topic, haha![/QUOTE]

Those too! :lol:

[KIloBright]

Back to the question.
First, true collection starts in the back, and is not part of head carriage , within the parameters that allow a horse to move collected (ie neither too low, nor up in the air, but related to how that neck ties into the back )
Downhill conformation will make it more difficult for a horse to move collected, as will a long back, camped out hocks,a short hip, steep croup, and several other conformation defects-so lets look at all conformation defects that make it more difficult for a horse to move collected
While horses will do collected movements at liberty, such as bucking, which is a high degree of collection,they dont normally move at liberty with natural collection
There is a reason Arabian reiners are half Arabs, as that very level croup in a classic Arabian is not very condusive to hind end engagement
Instead of focusing on one element, looking for a horse that is built as true as possible to form to Function, you have to become informed to ALL defects that can cause a horse to be not able to fulfill his athletic potencial
For instance, you can have a horse built slightly downhill, but with a strong hip, low hocks and short back, and that horse will be able to move more collected than a horse with a long back, high hocks and ashort hip, even if that latter horse is built up -hill

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Wormwood;7913682]
Hah, I had no idea Peppy San’s were buckers. Mine wasn’t, but then she was super sensitive and had her own issues. Someone told me once anything Hancock or Blue Valentine was going to have a bucking streak.
Anyway, getting off topic, haha![/QUOTE]

That is not what I heard, the Mr San Peppys were tough horses and took long to mature, were generally 7-8 before you could relax on them.

Peppy San Badgers were nice to work with and a bit lighter feeling horses, not so strong but still very athletic and didn’t especially buck any more than any other out there.

The early Hancocks had a reputation for being salty broncs, cowboy horses.
In those days, breeders wanted other in their horses than good dispositions, that they though made horses soft.

Later they found out a good horse could also be nice to get along with and not spooky and watchy, what a surprise.

Also, today’s Hancocks are more refined, no jug heads any more and no posts for legs.

Guess that those must be regional differences, maybe, depending on what else was mixed in with those?

[Beverley]

Good idea, back to the question. Found a few pix to illustrate. This Virginia bred horse was a great-grandson of Leo on top, Golden Dan Waggoner on the bottom. I bought him at 12, was told that among other things he’d competed at 2nd level dressage and done duty as a ‘husband horse,’ I used him primarily for foxhunting though I also showed and won in a number of western and English disciplines and won the only event I showed him in. He packed my son foxhunting and working cattle too. A real sweetheart, wish he could have lived forever.

http://s222.photobucket.com/user/BevHeff/media/Leo.jpg.html?sort=3&o=5

This horse was Skipper W line, always a bit quirky and a particularly difficult ride for adult males, but kids, he’d pack around like a plow horse and do anything for them. My sister and I showed him western pleasure but then I declared him a foxhunting horse at age 6 and he hunted for 20 years.

http://s222.photobucket.com/user/BevHeff/media/Nick-1.jpg.html?sort=3&o=3

http://s222.photobucket.com/user/BevHeff/media/NickandLisa.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1

http://s222.photobucket.com/user/BevHeff/media/NickODHpairrace.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

This horse’s sire was Skipper W and Plaudit, top and bottom. I hunted him, even won a few hunter trial ribbons with him, and he was sooo mellow that any number of kids hunted him, and he once packed a journalist who had never ridden a horse before out hunting.

http://s222.photobucket.com/user/BevHeff/media/BevSimonHunting1981.jpg.html?sort=3&o=4

This is my little (14h) cutting bred mare, shown at age 3 when she was more downhill than she is now but still a tinch downhill. Zann Parr Sun, Skippa Slip, Spanish Red Wolf, Sugar Bars and Croton in the pedigree.

http://s222.photobucket.com/user/BevHeff/media/BoAug2_08.jpg.html?sort=3&o=14

I don’t have many pix of her uploaded it seems, here was an early cow session, but she moves decently enough that she’d be competitive in these parts in lower level dressage or hunters, or western classes. I should sell her to some kid to have a blast with in 4H or showing, but hubby won’t let me, because on the rare occasions he wants to ride, she packs he-who-fears-horses flawlessly.

http://s222.photobucket.com/user/BevHeff/media/BoCow.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2

This fellow is Pacific Bailey and Poco Bueno lines, if he were a human he’d be the fraternity guy that always brings the keg to the party. Ugliest mover on the planet, maybe, because he has an ugly front end, but the mind and attitude can’t be beat, in my experience that’s consistent with Poco Bueno breeding.

http://s222.photobucket.com/user/BevHeff/media/Battle%20Mountain/17.jpg.html?sort=3&o=9

http://s222.photobucket.com/user/BevHeff/media/Bryce%20Cnyn%20Area%20Jun09/38.jpg.html?sort=3&o=31

[KIloBright]

![](reat pictures, bev
While I raised Appaloosas, I did cross out to AQHA stallions, plus owned some AQHA mares
My one AQHA mare was Peppy San bred (rocky San X peppy San)
Bred her to our double bred Mighty Bright stallion , and she produced a colored App mare that I showed in many events, including cattle, western riding, trail, cowhorse events, plus rode in the mountains, and her ability bred on, as she produced A World Champion in ApHC working cowhorse, and also open champions on the cowhorse and reining circuit. Another offspring sold as a dressage horse to the wife of a USA Ambassador, one became a movie horse
Here is my mare, still healthy at age 29, pictured when I showed and trail rode her, plus two of her offspring

[IMG]http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/KiloBright/SanStone-1.jpg)

[IMG]http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/KiloBright/trail%20riding/AppBums.jpg)

[IMG]http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/KiloBright/cHRISANDgEMMA_zpsc59a0331.jpg)

[IMG]http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/KiloBright/Jerry.jpg)

[KIloBright]

Th![](s horse is pleasure bred, by the Appaloosa stallion Awarded , who is by the AQHA stud, Merit Award
She has a nice topline that is level, but slightly up hill. She is also a great mover
[IMG]http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/KiloBright/AwardedWithloveHunterinHand.jpg)

[IMG]http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/KiloBright/Awardedwesternpl-1.jpg)

[IMG]http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/KiloBright/cHARLIEANDRUBIXRIVER_zpscebd6c96.jpg)

[IMG]http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/KiloBright/Charliebalanceride1_zps2c44e22e.jpg)

[Wormwood]

[QUOTE=Bluey;7915822]
That is not what I heard, the Mr San Peppys were tough horses and took long to mature, were generally 7-8 before you could relax on them.

Peppy San Badgers were nice to work with and a bit lighter feeling horses, not so strong but still very athletic and didn’t especially buck any more than any other out there.

The early Hancocks had a reputation for being salty broncs, cowboy horses.
In those days, breeders wanted other in their horses than good dispositions, that they though made horses soft.

Later they found out a good horse could also be nice to get along with and not spooky and watchy, what a surprise.

Also, today’s Hancocks are more refined, no jug heads any more and no posts for legs.

Guess that those must be regional differences, maybe, depending on what else was mixed in with those?[/QUOTE]

I haven’t heard that about the peppy san horses before either, but then I’ve only worked closely with a couple of them. I will say both were very feely sorts, but with killer work ethics. I miss my little red mare for many reasons, but not the least of which was anytime there was someone aboard she was ALL business.

There aren’t a huge number of Hancocks out my way, but the ones I know of are still fairly plain-headed. Nice and thick though; I love how wide the ones I’ve seen are. Like picnic tables!

Someone told me at some point that waaaaay back when Hancock horses were rumoured to have had some draft blood in them. That was fence-chat though, so I’m not sure if my leg was being pulled or not!

[KIloBright]

I found the Peppy San bred horses very responsive, but not buckers
You better be riding when you ask them to do a rollback, etc, but My mare had great work ethics, went hi point senior horse many times, being very competitive at the breed level in reining,western riding , games , trail and cattle classes
At open shoes she also won HUS and western pl, because she was broke
Rode many mountain miles on her also,plus raised very nice offspring out of her
Just to show the mind she had-she had been retired as a broodmare for several years, when our local App club invited International youth to come and form a youth team for the Canadian National show
The response was bigger than anticipated, thus the club was short horses.
I was asked if they could use San Stone. She had a foal on her, which I weaned.
I then gave her a re fresher course of two weeks under saddle. The youth from Germany arrived a week before the show. In Germany he had only shown western pl , trail and horsemanship, but because he was one of the more experienced rider that came from Europe, he was entered in youth reining and games on my mare
I gave him a few lessons in reining and had him run a few patterns.
He won the pole bending, and got second in youth reining
A good horse is a good horse, and the Peppy San horses are working horses that have stood the test of time, still going strong against more ‘modern’ lines!
What is interesting, is that far as Appaloosas, it is the foundation bred horses that have a niche in open dressage and jumping, esp, just like many Warmbloods have some draft a few generations back (discounting those modern draft crosses that result from a direct cross to a draft, and are called Warmbloods ), those foundation bred Appaloosas also have a strong draft influence
Far as AQHA, Old Fred certainly had draft breeding
Bottom line, breeds are man made. Once a registry is formed, then the majority of membership determines in what direction that ‘breed’ evolves
In a registry that has horses competing in a very broad scope of disciplines/events, you are going to have a great more variety of body type, than in a breed that is bred for one or two main purposes. An example is the TB, where speed is the main selection
It is a fact that in any animal, be it a dog or other wise, type becomes fixed when selection is based on one or two criteria, and other traits will be often left behind, both for the good and the bad