I don’t push my horse forward into a fixed hand, because when I fix my hand(s) it’s for the purpose of lightening a too strong contact. If the contact was too light then I would be pushing my horse into a following rather than fixed hand.
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Some, and I’m one of them, would rather never get beyond first than ride with a strong contact. It’s a choice that everyone has to make for themselves (how much their horse should have to endure).
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Why would bringing your hands back to maintain the contact cause her to drop her back? IOW, if you use your leg to restore forward wouldn’t that get her over the back again whether you brought your hands back to maintain the contact, or let the reins go loose and then re-established the contact as she came forward again?
I’m need to pay more attention to what happens when I lose contact . I think when my horse loses balance and hollows and comes above the bit I don’t bring my hands back to maintain the contact, but instead just bend him and push him forward. But when he lowers his neck and overflexes I maintain the contact and bend him and push him forward, and then if he still doesn’t come back up I put both hands up and forward and lift his neck, release, and then re-establish the contact.
I’m not very strict about the lowering, because sometimes I think he’s asking to stretch and I usually let him when he asks
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This particular horse, if BTV, I bump gently with my legs encouraging more activity, push hands forward a touch to see if she’ll follow them down, and let go. Generally this works.
This horse holds a lot of tension from tail to poll – has from the day I met her – so if she’s BTV then she’s blocking somewhere and I need to figure out how to help her let go.
Some days we simply walk the rail and all I do is shorten my reins, lengthen them (as she pulls them gently from my hand); wash, rinse, repeat. Over and over. Trying to teach her that contact is okay, and that yes she actually is capable of working within it.
I can flex her at the poll, the withers (base of neck) and do lateral work, to encourage her to let go. Sometimes I just drop my reins altogether and go smartly forward.
And sometimes she just needs to shut up and listen to me, ya know? :lol:
My original post was not intended to spark this much detail or debate, it was just a “generalist” question, and I think that every horse you ride wants a slightly “tailored” answer. Just like people.
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Check MY posture, sometimes simply raising my chest will lift the horse’s head, along with adding leg. Sometimes it is time for a stretchy trot, just remembering to keep shoulders back and open.
Dropping all contact simply rewards behavior we do not want, so it’s a fine line juggling act.
The hands and arms do follow the head, in general. As collection increases there is less follow necessary.
Obsidian Fire [Quote]"Basically, when you push a horse forward, if there is nothing in front to “catch” that energy, it just goes splat. That’s where hands come into play. (yes, oversimplified).[Quote]
Actually the rider’s body and seat capture that energy, and meters it out, the soft hand remains the same.
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I probably shouldn’t do it, but today somebody took a video in the lesson… This is the warm up phase and I hope it shows what I mean… In the Warmup I still give my horse a little more rein but I already try to ride her with my legs into contact… The softer the contact gets, the more I am also able to shorten reins. This horse will do anything to destroy the contact, I think you can see it sometimes and it takes a lot of focussing to get all my aids together to keep her round and forward…
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In mulling this topic and it’s explanations over, I went back to a book I have, Walter Zettl’s Dressage in Harmony.
From section 6.6.2 Behind the Bit (excerpt):
"… In order to correct this, the rider should maintain light contact and drive the horse from behind until the rider’s hands can be moved forward as the horse pushes his nose forward to or in front of the vertical. It cannot be accomplished with loose reins. The horse will never stretch his nose forward by the rider giving up complete contact. It should be corrected by riding as if the reins were like sticks in each hand that push the bit gently forward. The seat and legs drive the horse over the back to this contact.
Going behind the bit is by far the more difficult fault to correct and therefore a more serious fault than going slightly above the bit. So it is far better to never allow the horse to go behind the bit. The driving aids and rein contact are a delicate balance. The rider should not push the horse so much forward that the horse rushed and the rider is forced to catch the horse on his hands. Then the horse repeats the problem as he slows down, overflexing behind the vertical and dropping contact. Therefore, the rider must carefully drive the horse, paying attention to steady rhythm, moving his hands slightly forward only as he succeeds in getting the horse to stretch his neck and head forward onto or slightly in front of the vertical. The rider’s hands move in the direction of the horse’s mouth without giving up the contact."
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I never said “strong” contact. When a horse is really in front of your leg, going INTO the bridle, with your following hand - you feel the energy recycle through your body in the circle of the aids. The contact is POWERFUL. To me, “strong” contact implies a fixed hand. “Endure”? when going around with a dropped back and haunches out behind has been shown to damage the spine? Just who is “enduring”? The horse ridden in a supple and round connected frame, or the one going around with his haunches out behind, shoulder sling hanging - on the forehand because that’s “natural”, … when this has been shown to be detrimental??
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My young horse is naturally very light in the hands and will have a tendency to hold a false frame/ go a little BTV if she’s not moving her hind end enough. The breakthrough came when I understood exactly how MUCH energy I needed to access from behind to fix the contact.
I was riding her in a way where I thought I was engaging her hind-end, and it took watching my trainer ride her and taking some clinic lessons to really understand how much more fire I needed to get her really moving into “big girl trot”. I would see her in the field get really fancy while playing/spooking and see “oh yeah, that’s how much she can actually move”. It’s different for every horse, but 100% all of my contact issues with this horse are fixed by having a good outside rein connection and a real honest-to-god motor from her hind legs (it was the feeling of reaching into another gear when I felt the difference - I was kinda babying her before and not getting the right results for energy).
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Are you teaching these people lessons, or why do you want to explain this to then?
Mostly it’s just conversations among friends. But I hear a lot of “getting my horses back up” and I grit my teeth because person is riding behind the leg with no contact or too little contact, and trying to explain that they need a bit more, I get this blank stare. Okay, these are not really dressage folks. But they’ve heard enough to pick up a bit of lingo.
Once in awhile I do teach. I also had an instructor awhile back who had this idea that I should never touch my reins. Period. Because my mare “didn’t want me to”. No worries, she’s not instructing me anymore.
Mostly, 99.9% of the time, I ignore it all. I do not go out of my way to coach or advise.
I just find that “hands” or “contact” seems to be this thing that either people…IDK. Like somebody else said about drinking the koolade…
We as riders have many body parts we can use as tools and used wisely none of them are “bad”. IMO.
Actually, just now thinking this over, I have an answer: If you pick up contact and your horse actually “connects”… OMG YOU HAVE POWER. HOLY CRAP GET ME OUTTA HERE! Yeah, that’s the problem right there. Most don’t understand just how powerful a horse is until they’ve ridden one that’s connected his hind end and felt just how much of an engine they really have. And if it happens “by accident” it scares the crap out of a lot of people.
Anyway. I’m done worrying about it. There were a lot of thoughtful answers posted, which I appreciate.
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This. I have said this to people, they don’t get it. Even people who’ve ridden well for a long time.
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@Obsidian Fire I think we rode with the same instructor! :lol:
She never said it but I started to wonder if she was an Art2ride fan. Then I realized she aspired to be like JLC. Except with the confusion that she was a big long and low to get the back type too. Which I think is very different to JLC. Oh and there was some natural horsemanship " soft feel" thrown in. After i left, I then noticed all her horses shuffling around on a loose rein. Not my jam, not an instructor that would work for me.
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It sounds from what you’ve said that you are on the right track.
If people are spouting nonsense about their own horse and riding just don’t listen. In the entire spectrum of incompatible barn buddies, a lazy rider on a loose rein is so much better than say a feral teen trying to ride barrels around you or an older dude with an anger management problem. If it’s not your horse smile and say “he has a really pretty tail!”
If people are making comments about your riding deflect in a way that makes them unlikely to ask again and don’t bring up riding technique as a topic of conversation.
If you want to be on general friendly terms with barn pals it’s a bit like at work. You just avoid the topics that you know you disagree on. It might help to decide in your mind that these people ride a different discipline than you do. Maybe they have snaffles, cranks, and dressage saddles. But they are not riding dressage despite having some words from dressage. Rather than feel the need to correct them, just accept they are on another path (the noodling around ineffective path) that might be just what they need. In your head classify them with Western Pleasure or cross rails hunter or something that doesn’t reflect on what you are doing. And then let it go.
I agree Art2Ride is deeply mistaken. They have taken one technique that might be useful for about the first 2 weeks of rehabbing a high headed or anxious horse: riding forward into light contact with a low head. And that is the entirety of the program. And I say this coming from a system where an active stretch down to the bit is a cornerstone and fundamental of training but only the first step. If A2R has influence in your area just ignore. It does not lead to actual dressage. It may lead to happy relaxed trail horses.
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Agreed. I also have yet to see any Art2Ride ppl that ever progress beyond the “slightly faster western pleasure” thing.
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