Question about contact

Help me figure out what I am misunderstanding, or maybe I have it right and need to explain it better to those who think I’m wrong. I really do not know.

I have been taught to “follow” the horse’s head/mouth with my hands so that my amount of contact stays consistent.
That means that even when my horse is compressing her neck back, I still follow – but it looks like I’m pulling because my arm ends up going backwards. To me, it’s sort of like duh! because to follow I go where she goes. But ???

I am not hanging on her mouth. That’s not the issue. Nor do I want to “reward” her for going BTV by not following her there, therefore no contact which she views as “reward, place I should go”.

Mare is an OTTB, not sure that matters to this discussion. And yes when she gets in that “sweet spot” she is rewarded.

Thoughts?

A rider absolutely must move their hands back as the horse’s head moves back because otherwise they’d drop the contact. Simple physics.

Which is not saying there aren’t times when one doesn’t follow the horse.

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You are correct

So how do I explain this to the non-believers who seem to think riding on a loose rein or losing contact is going to develop the horses back correctly, etc.? Geesh.

Thank you, I was thinking I am losing my mind. Horse will never learn contact if you keep letting go of it.

Maybe they are thinking of letting the horse chew the reins gently forward and stretching down. You then allow with more rein length and forward hand to encourage the stretch. Long and low is good for muscle development but you don’t just dump. The contact and loosen your reins.

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There are different philosophies on how to handle going behind the vertical, and to me it depends on whether or not the horse is actually going behind the bit or not. My violent bucker used to be afraid of contact and duck behind the bit. I was encouraged here and by some people in person to always keep contact with him. In his case, that would make it even easier for him to tuck further and leave me with no control of bucking.

In his case, we had to go very up and very open. Because open inversion was against his nature / build, he preferred to reach into contact from there to being held so open. Bonus of he never could tuck and avoid the bit from up there, so it was easier to stay on. It also ensures the bit only works on the corners of the mouth as it should, so he started to learn to trust contact more with his tongue and bars never having pressure.

My mom’s mare is the type of straightforward horse who is always looking for the simplest answer, and whatever is easiest for her. We suspect she was ridden in draw reins at some point, so she would pose behind the vertical without really using her body and just cruise along pleasantly. With her, I maintained contact where she was and asked her to use her hind end more. Lateral bending (first just large circles) to interrupt her efforts to pose and never letting her escape contact by posing taught her it was actually easier and more comfortable to swing through her topline. I of course allowed when she wanted to reach into the contact and open up. Fixing her was a matter of weeks vs years for my gelding with his “issues.”

What a longer rein can do for you, if it’s a horse who is afraid of contact, is allow the horse to build muscling to hold itself more open and therefore encourage that kind of carriage. I prefer the other methods, or what we did with my gelding which was the use of two reins, one on a noseband and one on the snaffle, so he had contact but on his nose instead of mouth.

  1. Who are these people and why do you need to explain this to them? Unless you are their coach you have no responsibility to do so. If you are their coach and they are arguing with you, fire them as clients.

  2. That said every dressage program should include work that allows the horse to stretch to the bit and take up contact with the head down and out. You don’t get this on no contact.

  3. Every horse fitness program should IMHO include work on trails that should be low or no contact just moving forward happily.

  4. Riding a horse on low or no contact still requires a following hand at walk and canter.

All that said, I have not seen you ride and I have not seen the other people ride. I don’t know if I would approve or disapprove of either or both of you. I can’t say for sure you are doing this correctly.

I do know that if you were further along in your own learning and more confident what you were doing, you would not find you needed to worry about barn railbirds from another (or no) discipline.

So my big piece of advice is;

Find a trainer that you totally trust and respect. Take lessons and practice what you learned. When the rail birds have comments just smile as say “Suzy Trainer has me doing this” and trot away.

”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹You won’t convince them. All you can do is signal that you aren’t interested in listening. Stay off those subjects with them

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One tiny little thing…
All your contact is worthless if you don’t ride your horse into the contact…
Every movement is supposed to be forward which is supported by your legs…

My trainer never supports me to go back with my hands… He wants me to use my inner leg against the outer rein to get my horse into contact. and yes I do need to have my out leg in place also…
if my contact gets bad he tells me use your inner leg…

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So the question for me would be, if one is doing their best to use their inside leg to push/bend the horse into the outside rein and he remains overflexed at the poll (btv), should they bring their hands back to maintain the contact or let the rein(s) go slack until they can get him back ifv and into the contact?

I suspect the choice has a lot to do with the horse, where he is in his training, and what the humans’ priorities might be, but I have to admit that I’ll lose the contact before I’ll ride my horse btv. In fact, if he lowers his head and comes btv I’ll lift my hands high enough to bring his head back up again, which will at the same time solve the btv problem.

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I admit that non of my horses ever over flexed because of me simply shortening the reins… They come BTV if they are behind my legs…
So I don’t know…

But I know that my trainer has never said so far that I should lift up my hands… In fact he told me to keep them quiet and together… But he is very intense about riding my horses with the inner leg towards the outer rein… He has a beautiful basic classical approach which I love!!

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I work very hard to make sure my elbows never go behind my body. I’m human and it happens but I do not do it intentionally unless a horse tries to exit stage left and I’m in risk of a true bolt.

If a horse goes BTV, the elbow stays at my side and I focus on creating a feel behind to push the horse back out to the bit. A really cranked up nervous type may stay curled even with no contact. When their mind gets to that stage I don’t think there is much positive learning going on. I’ll post back to the walk and go all the way down to the buckle to get relaxation established and start building from there. I don’t see that as “letting them win”. They don’t want to be cranked up and frazzled, they just don’t know how to bring down the energy once they get worked up. If it is just a bit BTV then I’m trying to do as few straight lines as possible and really focusing on my rhythm.

In theory, I understand the concept of following the mouth even BTV. However, I think there are a precious few riders who can ride with their elbows behind their body while also keeping a truly following feel, not pulling, and otherwise staying in alignment.

If I’m “following back” and miss that first hint of a contact, I’ve reinforced to stay behind the bit. Alternatively, if my hand is stable, the horse has the space to come back out from being BTV and reach into the hand.

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As far as the problem of BTV, for my coach BTV is a sign of huge problems and compounds other problems of evading the bit, falling on the forehand, and sucking back. Nothing good can happen with a horse that’s BTV.

Therefore if you are riding a horse that has learned to go in this fashion you need to use specific techniques to teach the horse to stretch out and down into contact and learn to raise the base of the neck and the chest with a long neck, a bascule.

At that point you can start asking the neck to raise and to have more poll flexions again.

But no, you do not just follow the head back into BTV and continue to ride on clear contact. On the other hand you don’t drop the reins and let the horse just mosey along with a limp western dude string neck on no contact.
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All of you make relevant points. And with all things horses, there are so many nuances it’s impossible to cover them all. Basically, when you push a horse forward, if there is nothing in front to “catch” that energy, it just goes splat. That’s where hands come into play. (yes, oversimplified). That just seems to be a concept nobody understands. Everyone wants to get their horse with its neck down, without realizing all they’ve done is dump it on the forehand. Neck down does not automatically equal back up, nor does “no hands” automatically equal “good hands”.

Whatever. 99.9% of the time I am on my own but every so often this comes up and frankly I don’t care who you are or what you think you know there’s always more to learn and a different way to learn it, so why not question what you think you know?

And @kande04 – I think your comment is about right for what goes on with my mare, and I appreciate the question you put into it.

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Well I’m speaking as someone who learned the active stretch quite late in my riding life and I would not say it is widely used or understood. I have not observed that it is the default fall back for dressage riders.

What I’m talking about is to teach the horse to bascule the neck and reach out towards the bit while lifting the base of the neck. This allows the horse to move forward into contact and engage the hind end. The horse learns to carry himself and does not fall on the forehand.

I agree with you that riding on no contact constantly does nothing very useful for a dressage horse. But I disagree with the idea that you need to push a horse forward into fixed hands and I see many problems created by greener horses being allowed to go BTV.

So I don’t agree with either you or your railbird critics. The solution is neither driving into a fixed hand at the expense of everything else nor slopping around on a loose rein.

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I get it. But myself owning a horse which is not very forgiving, I get reminded every day what rider mistakes can cause… She can be lovely and so much fun, but only if I get her into the right forward mode… everything with her needs to come from behind over the back. In the transitions if I don’t keep her in front of my legs, she goes BTW and tries to throw her hind up… If I don’t hold my hands quiet in front of me, the same… it is very tricky to do everything without any mistakes from my side…
Its fun to get her into that forward flow with a beautiful soft contact, but I wouldn’t dare to put my hands backwards if I loose contact, because then she will drop her back… with her I need to bring more inner leg at that moment to restore that forward moment…
As I said, she is tricky. today in my lesson I borrowed my whip to the other person in the lesson and then I found out that my horse was more relaxed and more consistent in the contact… Obviously even with my whip I was able to destroy that nice forward flow because she gets tense if I use it wrong… so when riding her I just focus on keeping her soft in front of my legs by using my legs to push her into contact and keep my hands quiet in front of me.
it is very basic and works beautifully as long as I don’t make any mistakes…
So maybe your horse is different and needs other things, but that’s my experience and that’s how it is taught in the classical dressage books

you can’t convince them. quit trying. In my experience they have drunk the “lightness” koolaide and think it comes first, before the horse is educated to the aids beyond “go” and Stop and Turn. … and so what if his haunches are left behind and he’s not using his back? See how light my contact is? See how nicely he drops his head?.. They won’t get past First level. As soon as their horse has a splat canter walk transition they will enter a second level test and hopefully the judge will let them know…

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Bravo wants to get too low, somewhat BTV, and roll over his shoulders. his favorite place to do that is in the arena as I go down the CL for the test after a wonderful, up, well connected warmup… This year I am FINALLY learning to really use my legs and push him forward when he does that… give him a good boot, but be careful that the contact doesnt catch him or get loose. Altho different from your horse raising his neck and going BTV, perhaps getting him really securely in front of your leg will fix this… as “they” say, fix the forward and the neck/head/frame fixes itself.

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@Scribbler nobody said one single thing about a fixed hand.

I get told I am too quick to give. By trainers who actually know what they’re talking about.

What do you do to try to fix the horse when he’s behind the vertical?