The rules existed looking before dressage shows! Like the 1500s… Dressage didn’t exist in present show form till 1920s, or about there.
[QUOTE=Scribbler;8647423]
…
The last thing you want to do, is take the test patterns as a training module, and only train “to the test.” If you did that, you’d never do lateral work at the walk, only start at the trot. And you certainly don’t need to master everything at one test level before moving on to components from the next. Of course, some things do ladder into each other, but some things don’t.
…[/QUOTE]
I find that the test patterns are there for a reason too. Either to set the horse up for the next movement, or to test the ability of both horse and rider to move from one movement to another. The one that springs to mind is SI to renvers.
I think we’re all in not too violent agreement that there are many ways to skin the cat. I and others are simply cautioning that confusion can result by using a well-defined term to refer to something other than its definition.
[QUOTE=SillyHorse;8646628]
I wonder if you are thinking of HI and half pass. Some say that HP is HI on the diagonal.[/QUOTE]
Hardly just some, the FEI rules book states that HP is HI on the diagonal.
As for LY being a SI like Scribbler wrote : That’s just non sense. You can mix the two exercices but that’s about it.
The FEI doesn’t include everything.
4 tracks shoulder in is an exercice that dates back to La Guérinière (who invented the shoulder in) so it is an exercice that can be done in different steepness. It’s been done for centuries and still done today.
The FEI rules doesn’t talk about the shoulder-fore, yet I don’t know of a single rider who doesn’t use it.
A great BNT had us work our horse in a banana shape along the wall, like a SI and a HI at the same time. Talk about a great suppleness test!
I worked the other day on a really interresting counter bent/renvers canter in order to put my mare really really straight. It made her sit like never before while she reached correctly in my outside rein.
The FEI rules also are not static, they evolve. HI used to be 3 tracks and it is now deemed as a 4 tracks movement.
As for LY not being usefull : that’s anyone choice but I believe it is a valuable tool to know how it works, how to use it and why.
[QUOTE=atlatl;8647586]
The one that springs to mind is SI to renvers.
.[/QUOTE]
Slightly off topic, but I am SO SAD that was taken out of the 2nd level tests. First of all, it really is a lovely training tool, and shows the rider’s ability to have some control over the shoulders and haunches and bend. Second of all, I just loved the flow of those two movements!
I’m not sad. I’m regretting them making the cc serpentine into c/w across the centerline.
[QUOTE=alibi_18;8647625]
Hardly just some, the FEI rules book states that HP is HI on the diagonal.
As for LY being a SI like Scribbler wrote : That’s just non sense. You can mix the two exercices but that’s about it.
The FEI doesn’t include everything.
4 tracks shoulder in is an exercice that dates back to Baucher (who invented the shoulder in) so it is an exercice that can be done in different steepness. It’s been done for centuries and still done today.
The FEI rules doesn’t talk about the shoulder-fore, yet I don’t know of a single rider who doesn’t use it.
A great BNT had us work our horse in a banana shape along the wall, like a SI and a HI at the same time. Talk about a great suppleness test!
I worked the other day on a really interresting counted bent canter/renvers canter in order to put my mare really really straight. It made her sit like never before while she reached correctly in my outside rein.
The FEI rules also are not static, they evolve. HI used to be 3 tracks and it is now deemed as a 4 tracks movement.
As for LY not being usefull : that’s anyone choice but I believe it is a valuable tool to know how it works, how to use it and why.[/QUOTE]
Baucher did not invent the shoulder in. Pluvinel began the precursors by doing work on 2 tracks, and Francois Robichon de la Gueriniere invented the shoulder-in by taking those 2 track movements on a straight line.
[QUOTE=Reddfox;8647782]
Baucher did not invent the shoulder in. Pluvinel began the precursors by doing work on 2 tracks, and Francois Robichon de la Gueriniere invented the shoulder-in by taking those 2 track movements on a straight line.[/QUOTE]
You are right! I got my old masters mixed up! :winkgrin: :lol:
[QUOTE=SendenHorse;8647780]
I’m not sad. I’m regretting them making the cc serpentine into c/w across the centerline.[/QUOTE]
Well, you still have a CC serpentine in Test 3, so just skip test 1;) I like the way the serpentine sets up the horse for the canter/walk transitions. I’ve always felt that transition (canter walk) requires a high degree of collection - perhaps too high for a 2nd level horse. HATE how all the other canter walk transitions are from counter canter now! 2nd level just keeps getting harder every few years.
I don’t think there are simple changes (or canter/walk) ever again after 2nd level.
BTW - I use the leg yield in my down transitions too at times! Cliniced with a very successful trainer a few weeks ago, and so does he…
A leg yield is used as a gymnastic tool to loosen the back.
[QUOTE=Reddfox;8647782]
Baucher did not invent the shoulder in. Pluvinel began the precursors by doing work on 2 tracks, and Francois Robichon de la Gueriniere invented the shoulder-in by taking those 2 track movements on a straight line.[/QUOTE]
Nope, one of my horse’s invented it when refusing to cross a stream. His nose was pointed at it but his body was bent at 30 degrees heading downstream. :lol: :lol: One of the best and most active S/I’s ever. 
I teach my riders that every time a horse yields sideways to the leg it is a “leg yield”. It really depends on where exactly the horse yields to the leg - behind the ribs? In the middle of the ribs? Or right behind the shoulder? The precision is improved with the rider’s aids and the increased obedience and suppleness of the horse to the leg, as well as the ability to balance more from the rider’s weight and rein aids (outside rein especially). From these precise aids the rider can start to influence a real shoulder in, which means bend and increased engagement of the inside hind leg.
For sure a prompt response to a simple “get over sideway and then balance” leg yield is a precursor to the precision, suppleness and strength required for shoulder in, which will be the most important exercise throughout the training of horse and rider.
[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;8647726]
Slightly off topic, but I am SO SAD that was taken out of the 2nd level tests. First of all, it really is a lovely training tool, and shows the rider’s ability to have some control over the shoulders and haunches and bend. Second of all, I just loved the flow of those two movements!:([/QUOTE]
Don’t worry, just look for it in third level. I heard they moved it out of 2-3 because so few pairs could do it correctly - just too hard for a second level horse to do correctly.
[QUOTE=lorilu;8650999]
Don’t worry, just look for it in third level. I heard they moved it out of 2-3 because so few pairs could do it correctly - just too hard for a second level horse to do correctly.[/QUOTE]
I have found the Revers-S/I, an excellent suppling exercise, and love doing it on quarter lines. It does take simultaneous contol of both shoulders and haunches.
One of those things you don’t think about, just do. 
Mirrors at arena ends keep you honest.
[QUOTE=Scribbler;8647098]
As far as the movement of the hindlegs in shoulder-in, yes, if you are doing the “show version” with a small angle off the rail, the back legs would probably just only go under the body, not cross. But for gymnastics, you can do all kinds of variations on angle and bend, on circles of various sizes, in-hand and in the saddle, at walk as well as trot. The action of the hind legs can be quite different from the show version down the rail. IME, these gymnastics really do help the horse engage the hind quarters, over time.
FEI rules are about what you do in the actual show ring, not what you do to train to get there. They just define what the move that you are judged on, should look like. They don’t (and don’t need to) discuss all the variations you can use in schooling.[/QUOTE]
There is not a “show version” of shoulder-in and a “non-show version.” Others have already done an excellent job of describing a true shoulder-in, so I won’t belabor the point. However, if the hindlegs are crossing, it is NOT a shoulder-in, it is a form of leg yield. There are many ways to perform leg yield—across the diagonal, head to the wall, tail to the wall, etc.—but there is only one shoulder-in and it does not involve a crossing of the hindlegs.
[QUOTE=SillyHorse;8646628]
I wonder if you are thinking of HI and half pass. Some say that HP is HI on the diagonal.[/QUOTE]
Yes, that’s true. But go to Google and look at images of half pass. Front legs are crossing, sometimes dramatically. In HI, the front legs do not cross.
[QUOTE=SillyHorse;8652023]
Yes, that’s true. But go to Google and look at images of half pass. Front legs are crossing, sometimes dramatically. In HI, the front legs do not cross.[/QUOTE]
I wish I had that thread that discussed this exact issue on UDBB. it went on for miles.
Very interesting to me, but I don’t think there was ever any real agreement, was there?
I do agree with silly horse about this. It doesn’t exactly seem complicated to me?
HI has the front legs on the original two tracks, though there is bend. HP is sideways, so both front and hinds cross each of its complementary pair.
Hinds cross
http://www.allthetests.com/quiz25/picture/pic_1215748172_13.jpg
Fronts cross
https://www.pinterest.com/Dressageriders/half-pass/
So the question is whether HP with crossing front legs is correct. According to the FEI definition it is not.
[QUOTE=SillyHorse;8652023]
Yes, that’s true. But go to Google and look at images of half pass. Front legs are crossing, sometimes dramatically. In HI, the front legs do not cross.[/QUOTE]
Not if you are looking at it from the FRONT - from where they are actually going.
Here is a diagram from a great book:
https://equineink.com/2013/12/01/the-difference-between-leg-yield-half-pass-and-shoulder-in/
BTW, the diagrams also show the difference between a LY - with a STRAIGHT BODY - and the SI - WITH BEND. If you have bend, it is some sort of SI, and your horse’s hind legs should go on the line of travel, not crossing, while the front legs (shoulders) travel at an angle to the line of travel, so the front legs cross. . If you do not have bend, it is some sort of LY and, since you are crossing the line of travel with the horse’s body, both sets of legs will cross.
I have that book, lorilu. Its very good.
Are you talking about the hp or hi in your first paragraph?
HI front legs never cross.
HP is a combo of HI and SI. Its not just HI, you have to add in more aids then just HI to get HP.
To the OP, I think you can watch a training level horse schooling LY from the side and doing an admirable job, and you can watch a fourth level horse doing a LY from the side and doing an admirable job, and you’d see different things.
IMO, tracking up at the LY depends on the build and strength of the horse, and the answer may not matter as much if you’re aiming for FEI versus first level. It you’re aiming higher, you’ll likely give your horse the time to develop properly. A horse with an aptitude for lateral work is going to do a better leg yield at second, third, fourth level than it ever did at first level.
