While I watched prelim at a HT this weekend, many riders chose to ride thru the water prior to an A/B jump down into the water while calling out “not presenting”. But the water they were going thru was thru the flags on a lower level and it got me thinking. Could jump a lower level jump and then come around and jump their proper level jump? Say my guy come out of the box for a novice run and I can tell 2 strides into it he needs a warm up jump. Can I jump a lower level jump and come around and do my jump? Why is situation 1 ok and not 2?
I have no idea but curious to find out about this situation. Wouldn’t going through the water of another level course be considered off course?
Yes, this is allowed.
I’ve done a ton of jump judging (and competing), and riders will sometimes do this with green horses to “get their feet wet“ before presenting to their obstacle; I did it once myself with my water phobic mare when she was green, added some time faults but we were clear otherwise.
(I wouldn’t make a habit of it because it can be construed as following the letter of the law but not the spirit, but they have made no changes to this rule as far as I know.)
ETA, I did call out to the jump judge “not presenting“, and she understood and scored me as clear on my obstacle and not off course.
Although I’m surprised that someone was doing this at Prelim!, one would think a horse should be confidently going into water at that point; by the time I moved up to Prelim with this mare she was very confirmed - going into water, dropping into water, etc. When I did the “schooling”, she was new to eventing and was going BN.
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You are not off course until you jump a jump at your own level out of sequence. For instance, say you are going Training. You jump Training fence 3, then accidentally jump Novice fence 4. If you then go and jump Training Fence 5 you will be off course. If you realize your mistake and go back and jump Training Fence 4 before Training Fence 5 then you are not off course.
ETA: I can’t paste the text while on my phone, but EV 139.1.a states that only the flags marking your own level count.
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Thanks for the clarification.
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You can’t jump a fence higher than your level and the ground crew quickly removes those flags so they are doubly off course. You can jump a fence lower that is flagged. (I used to jump the higher ones in my path for fun before it became a rule).
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Dr Dolittle and Gardenhouse are correct. As long as you go through all the fences flagged for your level, in the correct order and the correct direction, it doesn’t matter if you jump OTHER jumps, etc. as long as it isn’t “dangerous riding”.(Many years ago there was a case where a Novice (I think) rider jumped an Intermediate jump BACKWARDS out of the water. She wasn’t eliminated because it was intermediate, but because it was dangerous.)
But, depending on the layout, if you are “schooling the water”, you need to be careful that you don’t end up going through your OWN flags backwards. I saw a couple of upper level riders who should have known better get eliminated (“off course”) for going through their own flags backwards.
There have been several attempts to write rules to prevent “schooling the water”, but all of them had unacceptable unintended consequences, and did not pass.
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Please cite me the rule that says you can’t jump a fence higher than your level, or that you can’t jump a fence that isn’t flagged.
I do not believe there is such a rule.
Well I’ll be buffaloed, no wonder they zip out there and use the flags to cross the fences. you can’t jump a fence that’s crossed.
I think people often caution against jumping a fence higher than your level because they are worried about being flagged for dangerous riding. Although the only cases I have heard of that happening are like the one Janet mentioned where the person does something that is truly dangerous. But dangerous riding is a somewhat subjective call so better to err on the side of caution.
Regarding not presenting in other cases I always caution riders that they need to turn their horses heads to not face the fence if they are calling out not presenting to the fence judge. A horse with it’s face ‘presenting’ is not clearly ‘not presenting.’
I agree. And any time I am planning to jump a fence not on my course, I find the TD and explain my plan to him/her before I ride the course.
The one time I remember, there was a bank complex in a field partially separated by a fence. There was an opening into the field, but itgave an awkward approach to the bank. There was a jump set into the fenceline which had been used in last year’s course (at the same level), which gave a much better approach. It wasn’t flagged at all this year, but I checked it out to make sure that the fence, the takeoff, and the landing were safe. I found the TD to explain my plan, and he said it was OK as long as there were not any jump judges or spectators on or near the jump.
I think there were a few prelim folks that this was their first time at the level and everyone went clear at the water. This is going to be a tool in my belt for sure! My guy came out of the start box wide eyed and overwhelmed and if I could have taken a BN fence first, it might have made a difference. Wow, learn something every day!
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As a jump judge, I always hated that. Riders would yell not presenting and then ride as close as they could to the obstacle.
I remember penalizing several over the years. One came into a water complex, yelled not presenting and then circled in the water before going to their obstacle. They crossed their line on the way to the obstacle. They protested but the TD upheld it.
A second tried the wet the feet approach but it was clear the horse had already locked on to the obstacle and lurched in that direction. Again the TD upheld.
A third was a combination of a table to a skinny. They were labeled separate jumps. I could see that they were off line to the table before they even jumped it. That meant they had no shot at the skinny. The rider tried to yank the horse back in and then yelled not presenting. They circled, crossed their line and then jumped. 40 pts. Upheld by the TD.
The horse trial is there as a test, not a practice. I think riders should not be allowed to yell not presenting.
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In Canada, larking is prohibited unless you receive pre-approval from the TD:
D307.3: Larking - (the unnecessary jumping of fences that do not form part of a
Competitor’s course) is prohibited under penalty of elimination. It is permissible to jump a fence of a lower level, in the correct direction only if it offers a better line to the next obstacle and provided the Competitor receives pre- approval of the plan from the Technical Delegate/Ground Jury.
Our rules used to allow competitors who had jumped an incorrect fence to proceed without penalty, as long as the correct fence was jumped (like the example given earlier about jumping Novice jump 4 then correcting to jump Training 4, then proceeding). That was removed so it is no longer permitted.
The foot-wetting would be allowed here as long as you’re not going through flags for another level, it seems. I did see this year in a 2* one competitor went through the unflagged water, then circled around and went to the fence. I’d hope by the time you made it to the 2* level that your horse would be schooled through water enough but 
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This reminds me of my sister’s first Novice - and you actually might be speaking of the same situation if this was in Area 1. My sister put in a clear XC round (with a little time) on my old horse. We cheered her on at the water complex but obviously couldn’t see the whole course (GMHA). Waited for scores to be posted and saw an E next to her name. She said she was clear, we thought she was clear with a little time. We made an inquiry, TD said jump judge said sister jumped out of the Intermediate side of the water complex - that drop was literally as tall as this horse! Against my best judgment I burst out laughing - my guy’s scope was maxed out at a soft T which was exactly why he was given to my sister. Myself, my parents, and our coach were all at the water complex and we all saw her exit on the Novice side. Coach asked to see where the jump judge was sitting and sure enough, they were not sitting in a place that showed a clear path of the exit of the complex - they could see the back of the fence, but not the front. Sister challenged the results and after we involved a few unaffiliated witnesses who were also at the complex she got the E removed. This was in the early 2000s.
The OP’s question is a rule I have seen inconsistently enforced because there is a fair bit of misunderstanding about the rules - from crossing tracks, presenting, and jumping jumps not included in your course. As far as I have seen as a volunteer, competitors who opt to jump a fence higher than their level or a fence that is not flagged almost always get DR penalties - so I would not do it.
I have been the competitor that goes through the water first if the course is technical enough. I once jumped out of an unflagged section of the water at King Oak, and then presented to my actual fences (a ramp combination in and out of water). I did not get any penalties though I did accrue quite a bit of time. Depending on the jump judge’s savviness of the rules, you may or may not run into issues or find a letter next to your name that you may need to fight once the scores are posted. I’ve seen it happen to friends though thankfully have never had it happen to me.
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Some horses just never get super comfortable with water.
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This is silly, I’ve used this a few times in the name of safety, my horse flew into a related line and I yelled that or “circling” and turned out wide, and back, but don’t cross my tracks and jump the second part. Sometimes things happen and part of eventing is thinking on your feet. My friend did something similar once because the distance was too iffy for her short strided horse so she opted to land and turn out wide and back to ensure a safe jump over the second element.
I have had jump judges mark me 20 but the TD removed them each time after viewing the GoPro footage.
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I am having a hard time picturing in my head how one would, for example, go thru the water and then thru the flags with out crossing their path.
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All the horses crossed their paths at the HT Sat. I’m confused. You can cross your path on CC. You can’t in between an A/B element but folks do on CC all the time, most notably before the last jump if you are too fast.
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