Question about sales etiquette

[Alternate1999]

Question for you COTH. Curious about how you all feel how this situation went and who is in the wrong or right or if it’s somewhere in the middle. I am the in sort of in between for my bosses and their horse trainer. Situation is they decided to sell one of their horses and hired her to do so. Verbal agreement was made that trainer gets commission on the sale of the horse.

Fast forward about 6 weeks and horse is not selling for what they’d like and they decide to take her off the market. Trainer inquires about owners compensating her for her time and efforts marketing the horse, fielding calls, showing the horse to buyers etc. Owners say that was not the agreement. Trainer says the agreement was to sell the horse and they are the ones that backed out of said agreement so she is entitled to being paid as she did the work and through no fault of her own the horse wasn’t sold.

I am torn as I see points from both sides and errors on both sides of not having a written agreement on the process of selling and what payment might be if such a thing would occur as the owners deciding not to sell. I’ve been in the industry for 20 years but have never dealt with the sales aspect so I’m not sure what to think and am curious as to what the opinion of others who have been in a situation like this would be.

[Belmont]

Was the horse boarding & being ridden by trainer at trainers place or was she just making phone calls/advertising/etc?

[Eclectic_Horseman]

I think that the trainer has a good case to be paid for the actual costs of her time and reimbursement for any out-of-pocket expenses.

If the horse is being boarded with, or trained by, the trainer on an ongoing basis, then the value of the relationship should be considered.

[FitToBeTied]

If the trainer agreed to be paid from the sale then she is not really entitled to anything. It’s really no different from a Real Estate agent who takes a listing and is unsuccessful in getting sold. If the property is pulled from the market, the agent gets nothing.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

Unfortunately, I think the trainer is SOL if she only set her fee based on the commission of what the horse sells for as her compensation.

Ideally, the agreement would have been “% of sale + fee” OR “% of sale + fee even if horse does not sell.”

If it was just a loose verbal agrement, I think it will be difficult for her to get paid, especially if she didn’t set a price for her time beforehand. There is always a risk a horse will not sell, no matter how hot the market, and the trainer needs to have that in mind.

[trubandloki]

Oh, what a lovely example of how a written contract saves relationships. Then everyone knows the rules, not everyone assuming what they think they know the rules are.

Was the trainer being paid training board and such for the horse?

[Alternate1999]

Horse was originally boarded with trainer for training to make suitable for their daughter to ride. Horse continued to be boarded with trainer and under training board while marketed.

[endlessclimb]

I think trainer is SOL here.

[Bonnie2]

For sure there should have been a written agreement. Since there wasn’t it is up to the two parties to decide if they want a relationship going forward. If the seller wants to keep the horse at the trainer’s barn or wants to use the trainer’s services in the future, they need to ante up to keep the peace. If the trainer considers the seller a valuable client to retain, they need to swallow this one. If neither has an interest in future good relations, then the trainer will just have to be satisfied with the training board and everyone is wiser for next time. Sorry you are stuck in the middle!

[trubandloki]

With this information I agree, the trainer is out of luck.

The agreement was the trainer would get a percentage at time of sale. That is not an endless - here let me pay training board on this horse forever and ever until you manage to sell the horse.

[Belmont]

Agree.
This is where I land with the info.

OP - Not totally related but I will drop this here in regards to oral agreements & horses, at least in TX - https://www.quarterhorsenews.com/2023/08/jury-awards-trainer-4-1-million-in-stallion-dispute/

[McGurk]

But what if the house was pulled from the market before the end of the contract? My recollection is that you sign a listing agreement for 60 or 90 days, and that if you pull the house from the market before the end of the contract, you do owe the commission.

In this case, I do think that the sellers of the horse owe the trainer something for her time and trouble, over and above training board. 6 weeks is not a lot of time to get a mid to high end horse sold. As another poster suggested, I think the actual value of her time at her usual hourly rate and expenses would be fair.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

I definitely agree that a trainer’s time is valuable, in all the ways listed! But it sounds like there wasn’t anything specifically signed? If so, that’s surprising in and of itself, by an experienced trainer.

Regardless, it sounds like the trainer needs to insert a new clause in future sales contracts to protect herself.

Just wanted to make it clear I wasn’t unsympathetic with the trainer–as a freelancer, I’ve had issues with clients who have been drains on my time in ways I couldn’t charge, based on my contract with them. (For example, I only charge for meetings, not exchanging emails, calls, and texts, but I’ve had clients who literally would text, email, and call nonstop to the point it was getting in the way of doing any other work. I just wouldn’t work with them in future, or, in some instances, fire ASAP.)

If not making a good faith offer to compensate the trainer (which I certainly would, were I in their shoes), there may be even more unhappiness in the relationship about the marketing than we’re aware of.

[OverandOnward]

@McGurk

But what if the house was pulled from the market before the end of the contract? My recollection is that you sign a listing agreement for 60 or 90 days, and that if you pull the house from the market before the end of the contract, you do owe the commission.

Where is that idea from? No, if the owner pulls the house from the market, they don’t owe anything.

It’s hard for the realtor because they did expend money, time and resources. But usually they don’t get anything.

Many realtors make a big effort in the first couple of weeks the house is on the market. Including open house.

But if there are no offers early on, many back off doing anything more than just letting the listing and signs exist and be visible. Even if it is a market with longer times on the market before sale.

Because they want to limit their input in case the owner gets impatient and pulls the listing. They protect themselves as well as they can.

If the owner will lower the price, the realtor will make a new round of phone calls and effort.

[OverandOnward]

First thing that occurs to me is if the trainer and owners agree on what was said during the verbal agreement. Was compensating the trainer if the horse doesn’t sell discussed?

If they agree that this element of compensation was not discussed, only the commission, then the trainer isn’t owed anything.

The trainer can’t change the rules after the game is played. When she realized that she wanted one more rule in place.

If the trainer let them know up front that, if they pull the horse by X time, they would get a bill for her time & expenses, and they agreed, she could bill them now and expect that they will pay.

She can still bill them. It would be a good gesture on their part to pay. But they aren’t obligated to do so, since they didn’t agree on this ahead of time. Maybe she can explain that she made a mistake when she didn’t bring this up earlier, but hopes they will respect her time & effort and compensate her for it.

This really comes down to who most wants to preserve the relationship. Is the trainer willing to burn bridges over this? Is the owner?

The trainer just got a tough life lesson. Not having a written agreement not only left the trainer unprotected, it opened the door to an awkward situation that risks a client relationship.

Trainer needs to make up a blank contract, that she thinks is fair to her, to have ready to use in the future. That stipulates that if the owner pulls the horse, they will pay an invoice for $X amount per hour for her time. Plus any expenses she incurs. It’s easier and more timely to do this before need.

Sometimes sellers don’t respect the work of agents. Any product. Agents have to accept this and maintain relationships wisely.

[Jarpur]

@trubandloki

let me pay training board on this horse forever and ever until you manage to sell the horse.

As the owner, the lack of a time limit would bother me, too. What motivation does the trainer have to sell the horse, especially quickly, if it is otherwise a source of training income (and perhaps lesson/show income from the daughter’s riding)?

Had the trainer given these people a rough idea of what a typical sale of a similar horse would take, time-wise? What does it mean that the horse wasn’t “selling for what they’d like?” Did the trainer consult in setting the price? Was this perhaps an unrealistic price (and perhaps trainer knew it but, again, horse was a source of continuing training/lesson/show fees)?

Is the horse still with this trainer? I expect that owners sometimes do get cold feet about selling – whether they can’t get the price they want, or realize that they’d miss the horse, or change their minds for whatever reason. If that occurs after the trainer brings them a ready, willing, and able buyer, that’s different than backing out of marketing the horse within a matter of weeks of the trainer’s unsuccessful effort.

The trainer is the pro, not the owners. To me, the trainer is the one to set the parameters for selling (or, more like, attempting to sell) the horse, subject to the owners’ agreement. If the pro failed to do so, and there’s no valid contract, that’s on them.

This is not even getting into the proof of the trainer’s efforts – time spent, etc. If the contract was for a percentage of the sale price, possibly plus or minus certain related expenses, that’s one thing. But if it suddenly turns into a cost per hour, that’s entirely different.

JMHO as someone who has dealt in the past with agents, although in an entirely different field than horses or real estate. Everyone has to be crystal clear on everything, in advance – no surprises.

[Bogie]

I would feel worse for the trainer if she hadn’t been getting training board while marketing the horse. I do think because they did not specifically discuss/document any option for compensating the trainer above and beyond training board for marketing the horse, she is probably out of luck. In her shoes, I would send the owners a bill for OOP expenses.

[candyappy]

@FitToBeTied

If the trainer agreed to be paid from the sale then she is not really entitled to anything. It’s really no different from a Real Estate agent who takes a listing and is unsuccessful in getting sold. If the property is pulled from the market, the agent gets nothing.

My first thought was the trainer should receive something for her time/ effort but then I read this ^^^
I never thought about that but it makes just as much sense and she was making an income by boarding and riding the horse while showing it to prospective buyers.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

This is also why there is sometimes a big conflict between real estate agents and buyers–the agent wants the house sold ASAP. The buyer wants a specific price, and may even be willing to wait quite some time to get that price. (For example, if just downsizing or doing a less-than-urgent move.) Also the agent may pressure the buyer to shell out money to make the house more attractive with improvements that the buyer doesn’t feel like doing or doesn’t think is worth it to move the house faster.

These conflicts between agents and sellers are why contracts are necessary.

[sami-joe]

I’m wondering whether you have been pressured for allegiance by either side.

Sometimes a lesson – especially when it’s conducted in real life on other people’s lives – can be super instructive. If you’re lucky, no one will demand that say what you think, and you can go on with your career.