Question about Secretariat's Death

[summerhorse]

[QUOTE=2ndyrgal;2180472]
Secretariat was also much older than Barbaro at the time of his death. I’m sure that might have had something to do with a decision as well. I had never heard of him being “obese”.[/QUOTE]

He was 19 when he died, hardly ancient. OK whatever you want to call it he was too fat. His crest was too thick, he was just fat all over. Pretty but fat. After a certain point fat is fat. He wasn’t the equivalent of the 600 pound man but he’d definitely be a walking heart attack about to happen if he were a human.

[Beezer]

[QUOTE=summerhorse;2181508]
He was 19 when he died, hardly ancient. OK whatever you want to call it he was too fat. His crest was too thick, he was just fat all over. Pretty but fat. After a certain point fat is fat. He wasn’t the equivalent of the 600 pound man but he’d definitely be a walking heart attack about to happen if he were a human.[/QUOTE]

Actually, if you look back at pictures of him in his racing days, he was just a plain BIG horse. He was always larger (i.e. bulkier) than any other horse on the track, and Lucien Laurin was famous for saying he didn’t think he’d ever get “the fat boy” in racing shape or keep him that way.

So, he apparently was calorically challenged all his life; I can identify with that! :winkgrin:

I tended to think of him in later years as the pro athlete (which he was) settling into retirement (which he did) whose muscles turned paunchy. I honestly don’t know how, if all at, he would be managed differently today. He was simply a BIG horse with an appetite that was well-known for being equally as big. Whether that contributed to his laminitis, well … I keep hearing they know what killed Phar Lap, too.

I adored that horse and still consider him the very best of all time. I have my own theory about why he was seemingly euthanized so quickly after the onset and have always wondered that if his value as a broodmare sire and, to a lesser degree, sire of sires had been known then, would they have been so quick to pull the trigger (so to speak)? Would that be different now with the advances we’ve made?

I honestly don’t know.

[hopashore1]

Really summerhorse? Can you find a picture illustrating that? I’m not trying to be snarky–every picture I’ve seen though has pretty clear muscle definition. Not that he didn’t have a big crest, but I never saw him as “fatty all over.” But, I don’t know the years of all the pictures I’ve seen, and maybe that was a later development?

I thought Mill Reef, the steeplechaser, had the 2nd largest heart? Maybe I’m pulling that out of thin air, though!

[Glimmerglass]

[QUOTE=hopashore1;2181796]
I thought Mill Reef, the steeplechaser, had the 2nd largest heart? Maybe I’m pulling that out of thin air, though![/QUOTE]

Paul Mellon’s horse was an X-Factor, yes, I don’t know about the heart’s actual weight.

The list of champions determined by researchers to have carried large hearts is awesome and also includes Man o’ War, Count Fleet, Citation, Seattle Slew, Affirmed, Mill Reef, Nijinsky II, Northern Dancer, Native Dancer, Kelso, John Henry, Spectacular Bid, Alysheba, Easy Goer, A.P. Indy, Forty Niner, and Cigar.

[Lynnwood]

As far as the X factor goes involving amazing performance and the ability to withstand circumstances that were challenging it would make you wonder if Barbaro also carried that gene.

He did litteraly run away from that Derby Field.

[I_m_EBO]

Here’s a link to a picture of Secretariat looking pretty hefty to my eye.

http://www.mightyforum.com/family_album/images/secretariat.jpg

[Glimmerglass]

[QUOTE=I’m EBO;2181854]
Here’s a link to a picture of Secretariat looking pretty hefty to my eye.[/QUOTE]

I think you might be viewing his very thick neck and chest as being bloated girth, whereas I just see that as more common muscle found in breeding stallions.

[Louise]

As others have said, he isn’t morbidly obese, but what I noticed is that you can’t see a shadow of rib anywhere. He could have dropped a few pounds, definitely.

[djnorth]

Question re: Secretariat

Interesting thread. At this point in my life, I can’t really accuse anyone or anything of being fat!:winkgrin: However, I did want to share a little bit about Secretariat’s laminitis. I didn’t see it first-hand, but it sounds like, when it hit, it hit hard. The DRF had a story about him getting it in one foot (I think) a few months before he died. It seemed like he was stable but then it hit in all four feet. There was a guy working at the Horse Park who said he’d been to Claiborne a few days before he was put down. The guy said Secretariat was bloated and very sick-looking, a mess, he said. I also seem to remember that the necropsy may have showed a kidney problem. It may be that no one euthanized him too quickly, but the disease hit too hard too fast. Bill Nack wrote a very touching piece about it in SI. Claiborne didn’t even want him to visit Secretariat before they put him down because “you won’t want to remember him like he is now.” Maybe someone was there who can tell us if this was true, but Nack’s article was poignant and touching. Even if Secretariat were here today and got laminitis, there’s no guarantee that he would have survived.

[tma]

For whatever it’s worth (or not). Just tossing this out for consideration:

I have a stallion, diagnosed with Cushings.

He does not, nor has he ever, “looked” like a Cushings horse. No “classic” hair coat. Nor had he ever had laminitis prior to diagnosis, a cresty neck, etc. Never “obese”. But he is tested and confirmed, and has now been on medication (Pergolide) for almost 6 years.

We went looking for a problem thanks to a rapid shift in fertility, and massive amounts of gel with the semen in a pre-breeding season collection and evaluation. We didn’t test for Cushings initially, as he didn’t have any other apparent signs of a Cushings horse–of course we know that there can be many different symptoms, or combinations of symptoms…or in some cases, none at all.

It took us a few months to finally come back to test for Cushings - I think we tested for and ruled out, or treated for, just about everything else in the meantime.

Finally, we came back to Cushings. Bingo. Almost immediate elimination of the excessive gel once he was started on Pergolide. And we did see a rise in energy levels, a decline in which we hadn’t really noticed, or previously attributed to anything else, other than maybe age. Unfortunately, we were too late to preserve his overall fertility, and he was retired from breeding. (He went from being fertile and “shippable” to not impregnating mares via live cover in four months’ time).

In joining the EquineCushings group on yahoogroups in order to learn more after the diagnosis, I was surprised to find that mine was the only stallion recorded in the group’s statistics at that time (with over 800 members at that time).

That made me wonder if more stallions have Cushings, but maybe go undiagnosed (or diagnosed later) because they might be less likely to exhibit a combination of symptoms that might be suspicious of Cushings? Just based on my own personal experience with our horse.

As an example, I’m just thinking that stallions generally, tend to have a finer coat overall (and especially their winter coats) than their mare or gelding counterparts.

I just can’t help but wonder if it’s possible that some of the same factors possibly contribute, when it comes to a stallion exhibiting symptoms of Cushings…? Possibly making them less likely to exhibit visual symptoms (or maybe to a lesser degree)? Just tossing that out as a possibility/thought.

As time has progressed and his fertility dropped further, our horse did have one minor laminitic episode with no other obvious cause, despite management as a Cushnoid horse (feed and medications, etc).

And there are definately some changes in the hair coat now, several years later (somewhat thicker/heavier than ever before, and a tad later shedding now compared to our other horses). Still not what we’d define as a “classic” Cushings coat – but as we have had him since he was foaled, we ourselves see the slight differences/changes.

We consider ourselves fortunate to have picked up on the Cushings as early as we did (thanks to our wonderful veterinarian!). We hope that we have extended our horse’s life, and improved the quality of that life as a result by minimizing some of the potential effects of Cushings, with overall management and meds.

[tma]

For whatever it’s worth (or not). Just tossing this out for consideration:

I have a stallion, diagnosed with Cushings.

He does not, nor has he ever, “looked” like a Cushings horse. No “classic” hair coat. Nor had he ever had laminitis prior to diagnosis, a cresty neck, etc. Never “obese”. But he is tested and confirmed, and has now been on medication (Pergolide) for almost 6 years.

We went looking for a problem thanks to a rapid shift in fertility, and massive amounts of gel with the semen in a pre-breeding season collection and evaluation. We didn’t test for Cushings initially, as he didn’t have any other apparent signs of a Cushings horse–of course we know that there can be many different symptoms, or combinations of symptoms…or in some cases, none at all.

It took us a few months to finally come back to test for Cushings - I think we tested for and ruled out, or treated for, just about everything else in the meantime.

Finally, we came back to Cushings. Bingo. Almost immediate elimination of the excessive gel once he was started on Pergolide. And we did see a rise in energy levels, a decline in which we hadn’t really noticed, or previously attributed to anything else, other than maybe age. Unfortunately, we were too late to preserve his overall fertility, and he was retired from breeding. (He went from being fertile and “shippable” to not impregnating mares via live cover in four months’ time).

In joining the EquineCushings group on yahoogroups in order to learn more after the diagnosis, I was surprised to find that mine was the only stallion recorded in the group’s statistics at that time (with over 800 members at that time).

That made me wonder if more stallions don’t have Cushings, but maybe go undiagnosed (or diagnosed later) because they might be less likely to exhibit a combination of symptoms that might be suspicious of Cushings? Just based on my own personal experience with our horse.

As an example, I’m just thinking that stallions generally, tend to have a finer coat overall (and especially their winter coats) than their mare or gelding counterparts.

I just can’t help but wonder if it’s possible that some of the same factors possibly contribute, when it comes to a stallion exhibiting symptoms of Cushings…?

As time has progressed and his fertility dropped further, our horse did have one minor laminitic episode with no other obvious cause, despite management as a Cushnoid horse (feed and medications, etc).

And there are definately some changes in the hair coat now, several years later (somewhat thicker/heavier than ever before, and a tad later shedding now compared to our other horses). Still not what we’d define as a “classic” Cushings coat – but as we have had him since he was foaled, we ourselves see the slight differences/changes.

We consider ourselves fortunate to have picked up on the Cushings as early as we did (thanks to our wonderful veterinarian!). We hope that we have extended our horse’s life, and improved the quality of that life as a result by minimizing some of the potential effects of Cushings, with overall management and meds.

[minnie]

It’s been a lot of years and my memory has a lot of holes in it, but I do remember there was some kind of systemic precursor to Secretariat’s laminitis - either kidney or liver problem, I don’t remember which. I saw him a couple years before he died and he not only wasn’t obese, he wasn’t fat. cresty and well-fleshed, but you could see a hint of the ribs when he walked.

[summerhorse]

I’m sure Cushings does go undiagnosed in a lot of horses even in the late stages which most of us would pick up on right away. Not every horse owner is familiar with Cushings. If Secretariat had it it is unlikely he would have been suffering much from the effects yet but i do not think that was even a thought nor did anything show up in the necropsy that was ever announced.

I sold all my Secretariat stuff a few years ago but there were many pictures taken of him in his last years and he was TOO FAT (just as he is in that picture above). Don’t mistake fat for muscle. That’s an old halter horse trick. Since he wasn’t regularly exercised he wouldn’t have had a LOT of muscle anyway (no running around in the paddock doesn’t do it!)

I remember the Knack article, that went with my secretariat lot and he did say they said he should wait and not remember him that way so he must have looked awful. But they battled in for 3 months or so with the last month when the more severe stuff came back (he got better as many do then crashed with the same terrible swiftness that Barbaro did). They didn’t just give up on him, they did what they could and there is nothing to indicate he would have survived now vs. then. Horses are still dying from laminitis that seems to have no known cause. There was a standardbred pacer who came in to NBC in the summer with laminitis in all 4, don’t know if they knew how he got that but he was there for a couple of months or more when he crashed too and had to be put down. HIs thread is in here somewhere.

[FourWands]

My understanding, as relayed from a groom at Claiborne, is that Secretariat had not eaten, or even stood, for 2 days prior to being euthanized.

Poor guy.

[LotsofSlots]

Boy he was beautiful. I remember him winning the Triple Crown, I was 13 and I fell in love. He was always my favorite TB (after my own girl of course!) and I cried when he died. It was my first intro to laminitis and it has to be the about the worst thing that can happen to your horse. I would think nowadays they may have been able to pick up on things in the blood work but who knows if they could have saved him. I helped nurse a horse with it once, and that was enough. We did everything, no stone unturned, called experts, 24 hour nursing, no good. It took a month of ups and downs. She was only 7 and looked so beautiful when we put her down. She was in uncontrolable pain Sorry , this is giving me flashbacks. It is in a book about him that Claiboure (Bill Hancock) told the author to remember him as he was, I have it somewhere…

[Carol_Ames]

Manof War?

Was Man of War also considered to be too fat? I did speak with someone who had seen Secretariat shortly before his death, who said that Secretariat was at hat time in very poor bodily condition:( , the "ravages " of laminitis had taken their toll:cry:

[libgrrl]

If I remember correctly, around the time Secretariat was euthanized there was a lot of second-guessing about the condition of TB stallions at the big breeding farms.

Three Chimneys (who had Seattle Slew at the time) was hailed as model for the way they handled their breeding stallions because they were ridden daily.

[fish]

FWIW, I saw Secretariat 2 weeks before he died. He was standing outside, being given a bath. His feet were bandaged, and we were told he had laminitis. I remember being struck by how fat he was, and yet still so beautiful. I cried on the way home thinking myself fortunate to have had the chance to see him in the flesh before he was gone. One of my fondest memories remains that of watching his Belmont in the TV department at Sears because we didn’t own a set: 20+ Secretariats thundering home by 33 lengths. Pretty overwhelming.

During that same trip, BTW, I also visited Three Chimneys and was very much impressed by the comparative condition of the stallions there.

When I lived in Florida I knew of a large barn in which 6 horses contracted fatal colic and/or founder because of walnut in a shipment of shavings. Two (the colics) died within the first 2 days. The last founder case was put down after 4 months.

[sid]

Stallions have big crests and are typically well muscled, so it can be very hard to detect either of these conditions until the problem is on top of you…laminitis.

They don’t have to be “fatty all over” or have the lumpiness one often sees in horses with Cushing’s or insulin resistance…or even overweight.

My stallion is going through this very problem now…sudden onset of severe laminitis in early August and he’s still trying to recover. Other than an increase size of his crest (not horribly so) we had no idea he had become insulin resistant because his body didn’t “fit” the pattern.

I suspect that may have been the case with Secretariat as well.

We were discussing on the breeding forum when Bo first foundered that it seems (anecdotally) that when stallions develop laminitis they don’t seem to recover very well – Secretariat, Pilot, others that I can’t remember right now.

[Beverley]

For what it’s worth, I was told at the time that Secretariat had mildly foundered previous to his fatal case, and his handlers were advised by the vet to eliminate the grain. Allegedly, they continued to grain him so that he would be sleek and shiny for his public. Nothing to do with Cushing’s or any liver or kidney issues, just too much grain.