Question about Secretariat's Death

[sid]

Beverly, I doubt that is the case. Grain changes or a sudden overfeeding can cause laminitis for any horse. That’s horse care 101. I very much doubt that Secretariat’s caretakers would have assaulted him with a “sudden” grain increase.

I suspect it is more likely that he had developed insulin resistance and no one knew it. Not much was known about IR even a few years ago. I also suspect he could no longer tolerate a diet that had served him well throughout his life, which is what happens with IR horses. When insulin resistance occurs, ANY quantity of grain or sugars can set these horses over the edge (even 1/4" cup or a lump of sugar or a carrot), but it doesn’t often occur until older age…esp. in TB’s. A bit like Type II diabetes in the elderly.

The metabolism has changed without notice. Unfortunately in stallions the changes can be subtle or unseeen … and “unexplained” laminitis is often the first indicator, instead of the the lumpy fatty deposits and fat crest that can alert us to the predisposition to laminitis and allow us to stave off a founder in other horses.

When laminitis is the FIRST indicator because the physical, body changes were not apparent, the damage is done…the management changes in diet just come too late for some to ever really recover from the devastation to the hoof.

Because stallions have superlatively muscled bodies and large neck mass anyway, I also insulin resistance is hard to suspect as they don’t fit the “look”…so unexplained founder may be the first indicator.

[Painted_Wings]

I saw Secretariat in 1985. He had the classic body type to be prone to laminitis. I went to a veterinary lecture on Laminitis a couple of years ago and that is one of the things the recent research has found.

We have a 20+ year old QH on our farm that also has that body type and he founded a couple of springs ago on the same pasture he had been on for years. As they get older they do get more prone to founder also.

[Fairview_Horse_Cente]

When I saw photos of Secretariat for quite a while prior to his death, I actually commented to several people that he was so fat, I was shocked he had not foundered yet.

I have had several cushings horses here - no meds, on grass and grain (sweet feed), no founder, BUT we kept them from being too fat. IMO, what many people say “just looks good” it really WAY too fat. The 11h, 19 year old pony we had here was severely foundered when we got her. She was down for about 2 months. Six month later, she was sound, and out with the herd on grass, eating her 1/4 lb of sweet feed 2x daily, lots of apples and carrots, & sugar. She lived anther 12 to 15 years, totally normal except for her hair that did not want to shed out. (Typical cushings, but no special care needed)

Moderate - score of 5 is what we all should be aiming at, not the 8 that is what horses show at.

Moderate is described as Ribs can be felt but not easily seen. That means you CAN see them a bit. I was always taught that ideal weight is when you can see a hint of rib when the horse moves, or turns a bit.

I also try to mimic a modified natural cycle. I want horses to come out of the winter a bit on the thin side - the same as they would in the wild, but not as severe. That allows their bodies to deal with the lush spring grass growth. They gain thru the spring, and then drop a bit thru the summer dry. That gets them prepared for the secondary fall rain growth. The fall grass, again fattens them for winter. This has always been a very healthy program for me, and I have not had the issues to deal with like founder. IR, or cushings problems.

My motto has always been, coming in to the spring, err on the side of too thin (BS of ~4). Coming in to the winter, err on the side of too fat (BS ~6).

I also don’t plant lush grass to make my pastures into a golf course. I would MUCH rather be able to turn ALL the horses AND ponies out on 40 acres, then to have a pretty field.

[Remember_Ferdinand]

[QUOTE=Glimmerglass;2180199]
Supposedly it is the largest seen at an estimated 22 lbs vs. the normal size of 8.5 lbs of a thoroughbred; the second largest heart disovered was Sham’s at 18 lbs; the great horse Eclipse had a heart clocking in at 14 lbs in 1789.

;)[/QUOTE]

Wasn’t Phar Laps heart enlarged as well? I once spoke to a racing Quarter Horse breeder who was trying to explain the X factor to me. She said it traveled through the dam. She said a lot of breeders were making a mistake by breeding through the sire. Well, she completely lost me, but she did say the Xfactor came around about every 50 years.

[Freebird]

What an interesting thread.

I don’t mean to sound morbid, but I too, am interested in what happened before his death. So, would those who were close to his connections mind posting any and all facts regarding his last weeks before his untimely death?

[BoyleHeightsKid]

@Laurierace;2179702

Secretariat had cushings disease which lead to the laminitis. I think there may have been enough advances in cushings research since then that things may have been different if it happened today. Once the laminitis sets in it either gets better or it doesn’t, so there is no way to know if that would have been different.

I would like to see where they said he had cushings. I have one of his grandson’s and have read everything I can find on him and not once did anything mention he had cushings or the cause of the laminitis. I understand that they wouldn’t have known what cushings was back then, but it’s wrong to say for sure he had cushings when they probably never knew what actually caused the laminitis.

[hey101]

@BoyleHeightsKid;2184884

I would like to see where they said he had cushings. I have one of his grandson’s and have read everything I can find on him and not once did anything mention he had cushings or the cause of the laminitis. I understand that they wouldn’t have know what cushings was back then, but it’s wrong to say for sure he had cushings when they probably never knew what actually caused the laminitis.

This has been such an interesting discussion. I am in no way involved in racing, but to me Secretariat is The Horse of horses and always has been.

Boyles Height, I don’t read that people here are definitively saying he had Cushings, or IR… more that those that knew him, or saw him in his later years, have indicated they remember at the time that he was overweight and displaying some of the symptoms that we NOW know COULD be those diseases. Since so much has been learned about these two diseases in just the past few years, and he died quite a while ago, I think my question has been mostly answered- it seems that YES, if he’d lived now, things like his body condition and metabolism would PROBABLY have been managed differently. Again reiterating that his caretakers didn’t take BAD care of him then; quite the contrary they were giving him what was thought to be the best care in the world at the time.

Please continue discussing, this is fascinating to get some insight into the behind-the-scenes of this superstar.

[Gnalli]

[QUOTE=I’m EBO;2181854]
Here’s a link to a picture of Secretariat looking pretty hefty to my eye.

http://www.mightyforum.com/family_album/images/secretariat.jpg[/QUOTE]

He still does not look FAT to me, big yes, thick yes, but I like the way he looks there.

[Gnalli]

[QUOTE=Louise;2181935]
As others have said, he isn’t morbidly obese, but what I noticed is that you can’t see a shadow of rib anywhere. He could have dropped a few pounds, definitely.[/QUOTE]

Ok, a TB person I am not, but this comment struck me as HUH? Educate me please (not being snarky, I swear it, just confused) Why would you want to see a shadow of rib? I understand lean on a racing horse, but on a breeding stallion, why would you want him lean to the point of ribbiness? Is there something that I am missing (and being a TWH QH person, this is likely since I am learning of TB)I have a picture of Rebel on my webshots that shows him eating hay where he is ribby, and I hate that picture b/c it implies a lack of care on my part.

[Gnalli]

[QUOTE=Fairview Horse Center;2184527]
When I saw photos of Secretariat for quite a while prior to his death, I actually commented to several people that he was so fat, I was shocked he had not foundered yet.

I have had several cushings horses here - no meds, on grass and grain (sweet feed), no founder, BUT we kept them from being too fat. IMO, what many people say “just looks good” it really WAY too fat. The 11h, 19 year old pony we had here was severely foundered when we got her. She was down for about 2 months. Six month later, she was sound, and out with the herd on grass, eating her 1/4 lb of sweet feed 2x daily, lots of apples and carrots, & sugar. She lived anther 12 to 15 years, totally normal except for her hair that did not want to shed out. (Typical cushings, but no special care needed)

Moderate - score of 5 is what we all should be aiming at, not the 8 that is what horses show at.

Moderate is described as Ribs can be felt but not easily seen. That means you CAN see them a bit. I was always taught that ideal weight is when you can see a hint of rib when the horse moves, or turns a bit.

I also try to mimic a modified natural cycle. I want horses to come out of the winter a bit on the thin side - the same as they would in the wild, but not as severe. That allows their bodies to deal with the lush spring grass growth. They gain thru the spring, and then drop a bit thru the summer dry. That gets them prepared for the secondary fall rain growth. The fall grass, again fattens them for winter. This has always been a very healthy program for me, and I have not had the issues to deal with like founder. IR, or cushings problems.

My motto has always been, coming in to the spring, err on the side of too thin (BS of ~4). Coming in to the winter, err on the side of too fat (BS ~6).

I also don’t plant lush grass to make my pastures into a golf course. I would MUCH rather be able to turn ALL the horses AND ponies out on 40 acres, then to have a pretty field.[/QUOTE]

Oh that makes a lot of sense on the pasture deal. I honestly never looked at it that way. It also makes sense about the ribbines that I asked about prior to reading this post. Thanks

[AC_Ty]

I am, and always will be, 150% enamored of Secretariat. To me, this is the greatest racehorse that has ever lived, and I can only HOPE that I see a horse even RELATIVELY worth comparing to HIM.
I have visited his grave @ Claiborne and kneeled and cried, leaving a single red rose atop the headstone. I have a wonderful picture of this.

I do NOT think that he was obese. I think he was a BIG BOY. That said, I don’t feel that re-hashing everything about his death is necessary. I prefer to remember him for what and WHO he was…not what went wrong. JMHO, of course.

I will always cry when I see ANY replay of his Belmont win. I would visit his grave every single day if I could. I would buy a grandson or daughter of his JUST to say I owned a horse with his blood in their veins. I love this horse that much.

Sorry I cannot offer anything of worth to this discussion. I just hope that others out there also wish to remember his greatness, not his pain. :sadsmile:

[Fairview_Horse_Cente]

@Gnalli;2185216

I have a picture of Rebel on my webshots that shows him eating hay where he is ribby, and I hate that picture b/c it implies a lack of care on my part.

I couldn’t find it. The 2 photos I saw of him eating hay IMO were what I call “Devon fat” a nice weight, but heavier than I want them coming into the spring grass. Probably close to a 6 - just a bit more than the idea weight. That is the weight I want on them to be ready to show at Dressage at Devon. It would not be enough for the Hunters, unfortunately, and I also may want just a bit more to head into the winter.

[Lady_Counselor]

As others have said, I too am and will always be a diehard fan of Big Red. I so wish I could have seen him in person before he died. I was a few years to late. He was the best in my eyes.

I can say from personal experience that it’s always a balancing act trying to keep the right weight on a Thoroughbred. I constantly monitor and adjust portions as needed. In the winter, I rely on running my hand over the barrel to see how the flesh is under that fuzzy coat. I like to feel the individual ribs under a layer of flesh.
I had one stallion who was tricky to maintain. He’d go from too skinny and ribby to round and fat in the blink of an eye. His best body condition is when you can just see his ribs as he moves. He was built a lot leaner than Secretariat was though. No huge crest or muscled up body.

Maybe Secretariat was carrying more weight than was good for him. I don’t know, I wasn’t there. Photos can be deceiving too. (just ask Tyra Banks!) But I tend to think that Claiborne might just have a clue as to how to take care of their horses…

[fish]

[QUOTE=Gnalli;2185207]
He still does not look FAT to me, big yes, thick yes, but I like the way he looks there.[/QUOTE]

I don’t like the way he looks in this picture at all-- which is very similar to the way he looked when I saw him a couple weeks before he died. I saw all the other stallions at Claiborne and at Three Chimneys on the same day and was very much struck by the difference in condition at the two farms, IMHO, because of the exercise program at Three Chimneys. In the photo posted, not only is Secretariat very thick, especially in the neck, but the top of his hindquarters lacks the rounded muscling characteristic of horses in good condition. At that time, Three Chimneys was quite unique in their practice of regularly exercising their stallions and I do think it did a great deal to improve their health as well as their appearance. I am sorry to say that Secretariat, Nijinsky (who had elephantitis), Hawaii, Conquistador Cielo, Spectacular Bid, Vanlandingham and the other horses at Claiborne did not look anywhere near as well as Seattle Slew, Slew of Gold who I saw at Three Chimneys the same day.

Case in point, BTW, came up in a conversation with my farrier just yesterday. I asked him about a neighbor’s WB mare I happen to like very much. The sad news was that she recently came down with serious founder: she always had a tendency toward overweight, her owner injured her knee, turned her out to grass because she couldn’t ride her, and the horse quickly became overweight and foundered. Now they’re fighting to save her life.

A few years ago a couple friends of mine visited some stud farms around Lexington and sadly told me not only that Thunder Gulch looked very overweight, but his handlers said they “had a hard time keeping his weight down and couldn’t afford to hire anyone to exercise him.” Sounded like strange economy to me, but what do I know? I’m keenly aware of the fact that it’s very hard to understand why others do as they do without spending time in their mocassins, but it does seem to me that a lot of extremely nice horses are kept in ways that increase the risk of laminitis. The easy keepers on my farm who don’t get enough exercise are kept in grazing muzzles.

[SuperSTB]

Well guys have to build big tool sheds for their tools

I don’t think he was TOO fat either- I would score him at a 6 maybe 7 tops.

Couple years back I read an article in one the horse mags or online sites which speculated that Sectretariat might have had cushings. I’m glad to see others bring that up as well so maybe we’re thinking of the same source?

A cushings or IR horse does not need to be overweight. I had an IR pony that we kept on the low side as a precaution though. Tried to keep him around a 4 although he probably would have been a whole heck of a lot cuter all rolly polly

My shetland Sunny is a problem now. I also tried to keep her on the low weight side as she is VERY prone to laminitic episodes- pre cushings. She’ll probably end up on medication within the next year despite a pretty strict maintenance plan. She’s the sweetest punk of a pony I’ve ever known.

[Laurierace]

[QUOTE=BoyleHeightsKid;2184884]
I would like to see where they said he had cushings. I have one of his grandson’s and have read everything I can find on him and not once did anything mention he had cushings or the cause of the laminitis. I understand that they wouldn’t have known what cushings was back then, but it’s wrong to say for sure he had cushings when they probably never knew what actually caused the laminitis.[/QUOTE]

I have already said where I heard this from. It was directly from his personal vet while on the triple crown trail. I am not willing to throw him under the bus so to speak and probably shouldn’t have mentioned it in the first place. Believe what you want, I am done with this and apologize for getting involved.

[Lynnwood]

I wonder if we are all missing the point a little.

No matter the speculation about chushings vs fat. The facts are that he did founder and severly enough to cost him , his life. What causes founder and how to prevent it is terribly important. On the flip side finding a way to treat it once it happened to me seems almost more important.

Focusing on wether he had cushings or was to fat seems minor compared to remembering his greatness.

I know the OP asked what caused his laminitis…the fact is other than his personal vet and those with first hand contact , unless someone comes forward now we are never going to really know only guess and speculate.

.

[summerhorse]

[QUOTE=Remember Ferdinand;2184660]
Wasn’t Phar Laps heart enlarged as well? I once spoke to a racing Quarter Horse breeder who was trying to explain the X factor to me. She said it traveled through the dam. She said a lot of breeders were making a mistake by breeding through the sire. Well, she completely lost me, but she did say the Xfactor came around about every 50 years.[/QUOTE]

Phar Lap had a large heart not an enlarged heart. One is good, the other is bad. A large heart can pump more blood thus more oxygen around the body to the muscles so they can run faster, longer. An ENlarged heart is a sign of pathology of some sort, some fatal, some not so bad but still a health problem.

Years ago I think it was Equus that did a big spread on weight in horses, how to rate it on the scale and the ramifications of being too fat. Secretariat was the poster child for being too fat and the big problem of fat leading to laminitis.

They did an autopsy on him but they never found out an obvious reason (beyond his weight) for his laminitis. But many cases of laminitis come from seemingly nowhere. You may not always KNOW the cause after eliminating the obviouis. It is the treatment and end result that is most important then.

Secretariat would not have been showing any signs of Cushings as a 3 year old I don’t think. I’ve never heard of a horse that young diagnosed with Cushings.

He certainly was the easiest of keepers though. Thunder Gulch earns enough in one or two services to employ his own personal rider full time with benefits. What a cop out. And how much is a grazing muzzle? And hey what about cutting down that grain? Just like people some horses can eat what they want and others are stuck with the equine equivalent of salad and rice cakes.

[summerhorse]

Here is the scale on how to rate horse’s weight (although the upper part seems to be missing! well probably it is elsewhere on the net). On this scale the very minimum I’d rate Secretariat is a 7 but he looks like a very solid 8 to me. http://largeanimalprotectionsociety.org/henneke.html

Are there fatter horses? Oh yes, I’ve seen them! But that doesn’t make Big Red any more svelte.

[MeredithTX]

[QUOTE=fish;2185787]

A few years ago a couple friends of mine visited some stud farms around Lexington and sadly told me not only that Thunder Gulch looked very overweight, but his handlers said they “had a hard time keeping his weight down and couldn’t afford to hire anyone to exercise him.” Sounded like strange economy to me, but what do I know?[/QUOTE]

Shoot, I’d do it for free if I lived around there! He was my all-time favorite racehorse. That makes me sad.