Question about x-rays on PPE

[the_sandiest_shoes]

Last year I had a horse vetted and it cost me ~$4,000. I think a lot of that was…not the most necessary. Of course, just like everyone says can happen, the poor horse recently got into a traumatic accident and is now in rehab for 14 weeks anyway (but hopefully will be 100% ok post-rehab - I count my blessings on that front).

All that to say - I’m of the opinion that there is only so much risk you can prevent by way of PPEs. The xray thing is something that seems almost philosophical to me now. I had three vets give me essentially three different opinions on the xrays last year, two of whom are very highly regarded and recommended to me. Which makes me question the value of extensive xrays in general. I’m looking into buying another and trying to not wildly overspend on the transaction costs this time around.

Curious as to what the general consensus is. When I was younger, the idea of x-raying everything under the sun was not yet a thing. This is a bit new to me, as a re-rider. If you were vetting a horse that had xrays already available, what would make you choose to get additional scans done, if anything? What do you consider critical in a PPE? What do you consider unnecessary? Thank you!

[rulex]

It really depends on what type of horse you are looking for and what your plans are. Young horse just starting to work? Older horse who has demonstrated soundness at the intended level and workload? A resale prospect or a forever horse?

For myself, looking at young unproven WBs, some with as few as a dozen rides, that are otherwise healthy and have no known injuries, I am interested in a basic baseline set to screen for OCDs in the major joints that may cause soundness issues down the line. If the horse has an existing set that’s relatively recent that I can send to my vet to review, I would be happy with that. If anything came up on the PPE, then I may elect to get some additional views depending on the vet’s recommendation. Although it’s a small sample size, my own experience with the young horses that I have vetted is the flexions indicated x-ray findings. Obviously that’s not always the case and there are lots of opinions on flexions.

I’ve recently heard from a few sources that neck and spine xrays can be a poor predictor of future issues so unless there was a specific concern the vet wanted to investigate, I don’t opt for them as a baseline.

[CanteringCarrot]

I’m similar to the above poster since I usually buy young horses that have just had their first few rides. I have bought from sellers that had x-rays available but I’ve always just had my own taken instead of buying theirs. Sometimes theirs are a few months old, not the shots I want, and I just don’t trust others, nothing personal.

The last time I bought a just broke 4 year old I x-rayed the spine (had a horse with kissing spine before, so personal thing for me), stifles, hocks, fetlocks, and hooves. Various angles/shots. The price per x-ray was extremely reasonable from a well known FEI vet in the area.

There were no issues with the flexion test, but I got x-rays regardless. This seller x-rays before horses enter his program so he knows what he is working with and has to sell, but odds of a 4 year old just starting work having bad x-rays are low in his experience. But I’ve still witnessed too many odd things and seen people around me have issues that could have been avoided or known about had they gotten a PPE with a few x-rays.

Of course the horse could drop dead the next day or come up with some sort of ailment, but for less than 1000 Euro, I like the peace of mind…if there is such a thing.

I just know that I’d kick myself later if the horse had an issue that I could’ve identified on the PPE. The horses I buy are usually sub 10k due to location (Spain) and training level (none or very little). Maybe my approach would vary based on age, training, and value. Even though the vet bills are the same on a 1€ horse or 500,000€ horse. I do find that PPE’s are personal. We all have different ideas about them, comfort levels, and expectations. Some off us would walk on certain horses, while others would have no issue with the finding.

[ToN_Farm]

@the sandiest shoes

All that to say - I’m of the opinion that there is only so much risk you can prevent by way of PPEs. The xray thing is something that seems almost philosophical to me now. I had three vets give me essentially three different opinions on the xrays last year, two of whom are very highly regarded and recommended to me. Which makes me question the value of extensive xrays in general. I’m looking into buying another and trying to not wildly overspend on the transaction costs this time around.

It’s common for vets to have different opinions on xrays. That said, I believe there are some things found on xrays significant enough that it is too risky to proceed with the sale. If you have one of those cases, then you will be glad you spent the money on extensive xrays. On the other hand, when the xrays come out great, you tend to think you wasted your money.

If for no other reason, i like to have basline xrays. Also, because I personally know of situations where serious issues were in the neck and back, i would definitely have xrays of those two areas. I can see where that would probably bring the bill up to 4k. It seems like a lot of money, but if you end up with a horse with soundness issues and have to pay for all the diagnostics, only to find out they situation is bordering on hopeless, you will be glad you got the xrays.

[Gardenhorse]

Agree that it depends on the horse and intended use. If a horse is sound in work at the level you plan to ride them at, I don’t think a full set of x-rays is needed. If it’s a younger horse, one you hope to ride at a much higher level than it’s currently working at, or one that has been out of work for some time, they may be more important.

[trubandloki]

I am older than dirt and I think people have been doing (or not doing, depending their preference) X-rays with PPE for as long as I can remember.

I totally agree with the point that was made above. If you find something that makes the sale not a good idea then you are happy you did them. If they are clean some people then proclaim them a waste of money.
I think if nothing else they are good to have to compare to in the future.

[amymoyer]

I’m an amateur with a very busy schedule. I am not doing anything particularly hard physically on my guy. I had him and the horse I tried before him both X-rayed, and I’m glad I did. First one show a rotation in the coffin joint AND arthritis in the hock, and the horse was 5. Vet said don’t buy something with problems both in the front and back. My guy had potential navicular changes - 10 years ago when I bought him. He’s been barefoot and sound ever since. Does he have the possibility of still developing it? Sure, but I’m forewarned.

I’ve easily spent more on his upkeep for the last 10 years than I did on the X-rays. For me, it’s better to know what COULD come up than have to shell out big bucks for something that will never be sound.

[Guyot]

I think a possible compromise would be to shoot 2 views of each joint instead of the US standard 4 views. Anything questionable, you can always add views in the moment.

I also do back and neck rads on them all. I wouldn’t not after a PPE on 4yr old that had a couple little things that we would have compromised on; but the neck showed a old fracture. (Probably fell playing as a baby out in the field) We ended up passing on him; lovely horse that I really hope does well, just to much risk for my client.

Horses are always trying to kill themselves… and we are all “insane”!

[TequilaMockingbird]

I spent $1k on a PPE for a 4 year old who had been lightly under saddle for a year. I didn’t x ray all the joints but I did both hocks and all 4 feet. I’m glad I did, especially the hocks. They came in handy 5 years later by eliminating hocks as the possible source of a new soundness issue (her hocks looked identical as they did from the 4 year old x rays).

In other words, it saved me time, money and frustration later. You can do x rays during a PPE without paying anywhere near $4k. You don’t need to do every single joint or do as many as they’re suggesting of every joint.

[2tempe]

My current horse I bought at 13, after half leasing for a year. I only x ray’d the hocks. But this was kind of a unique situation. Have since done stifle pics as he didn’t seem quite 100% but what fixed him in that case was accupuncture.

If I shop again anytime soon, I’d be happy to have films from the seller if they are fairly recent. I would be looking for a made horse so age and work level might drive what I would do as would vet findings.

[joiedevie99]

I vet everything thoroughly. Prices end up between $2 and $4k each if we make it all the way to the end. Prices only go up from there when I ask them to fly somewhere to vet a horse because we can’t find someone reputable/known for them to work with remotely. That said, we rarely ever get to the end - and when we do, we usually buy the horse. I use an exceptional sports horse vet who is well regarded everywhere he goes. My failure rate is between 75% and 90%, so I’d say these PPE’s have saved me from quite a few potential disasters (and I’m sure more than one that never turned out to be an issue). Obviously that doesn’t mean every horse I’ve ever bought has been issue free for its entire life - but I feel confident that I have mostly purchased horses that started out in a good place relatively to their age/training level, and when we’ve bought issues, we’ve done so with our eyes open and after a frank discussion with the seller’s vet about how to maintain the horse.

[AllWeatherGal]

I recently had a PPE on a young horse with obvious physical issues. I was pretty determined to buy her because of her attitude and personality, unless the PPE showed something unmanageable. So, the vet x-rayed every joint so we’d have a clear baseline against which to measure any developments.

In fact, that was the point for me–to know ahead of time what might arise and try to prevent or mitigate breakdown or injury–keeping in mind that the PPE is reflects what’s happening that day, not a guarantee for any future.

[outerbanks77]

The last few PPEs I’ve had done ran around $1500. That included hocks, stifles and front fetlocks. I think I had knees done on one too, based on incidence of OCD in young horses (2-4 year olds). In two, the front fetlock/pastern views showed issues (one an OCD, another a healed ligament injury).

I hope I’m not shopping again for a few years, but when I do, I hope it will be for an FEI prospect. I will probably get all the joints done as well as neck on back in that case.

As others have said, it’s nice to have the baseline in case there are issues down the line.

[the_sandiest_shoes]

Thank you all - these are good considerations. I like the idea of shooting possibly fewer angles and then shooting more as needed. I don’t have an issue with x-rays per se (and yes I always x-rayed in the past, but the tons of neck and back pictures is a new thing for me - I’m not against those, but those do seem to be less straight-forward sometimes depending on the reviewing vet). I’m not about the idea of spending 20% or more of my budgeted purchase price on a PPE, for example - I don’t think most people would be into that either. There’s a cost-benefit/ risk analysis in any transaction and it’s nice to see how other people think about it as well.

If I were made of money and had no price restrictions at all, then I wouldn’t have to pick and choose my risk choices. ALAS.

[pluvinel]

I have never vetted a horse…and this includes a stallion that cost more than my F-250.

I bought an unbroke 2 yr old Hanoverian (German bred with Pink Papers - by Dynamo, a top Hanoverian sire). The price was “right” because of questionable X-rays of Left hock. I bought him.

After the fact, I showed X-rays to a vet who said not to buy him…she was emphatic about this. Well, I had done the deed about 3 months prior.

I kept said horse for 12 years. He never took a lame step. I got interested in another horse and I sold the Hano to finance part of the purchase price. To prepare him for sale, I took him to New Bolton for bilateral hock X-rays. Turned out the Right hock was worse than the left. Fortunately, I had the X-rays of the Left hock from when he was a 2-yr old that showed no changes in 12 years…and that helped me clinch the sale.

If you know the sellers, and trust them, then buy the horse. There is no “perfect horse.” All horses are a heart-beat away from being dog food or a kick away from being a cripple.

If I had listened to the vet, I would have missed out on a fabulous horse, who definitely bought me points at shows.

I DO vet sellers…and cannot emphasize how important this is.

[MMavin]

On a limited budget with lower end horses of various ages, I do feet and hocks. My
goal is to both have an idea of potential issues and also have a baseline for my farrier and vet to use.

[XXS]

X rays are a snapshot, no prognosis for the future - there are so many variables. Horses with “bad” x rays can stay sound their entire life in full work while horses with “perfect” x rays may be pasture sound. Ask 3 vets you get 3 answers. If the horse is clinically fine, good conformation and hooves - it is on us to keep the horses as healthy and fit as possible with good riding and maintenance.
Always check the seller!!

[Redlei44]

@the sandiest shoes

I’m not about the idea of spending 20% or more of my budgeted purchase price on a PPE, for example - I don’t think most people would be into that either.

Maybe I’m an outlier, but I would absolutely spend $2k to PPE a $10k horse. (Assuming that it wasn’t a $30k horse that was heavily discounted because of known vet issues, which I would almost certainly not consider anyway.) A $10k horse with issues costs the same to treat/board/retire as a $30k horse with issues.

$4k to PPE anything, yikes - but I am learning a lot from this thread and I thank you for starting it! I was under the (apparently mistaken) impression that basic exams were $500-$1k and adding blood/neck/back pics pushed it to $2k.