Question for Dog Show People

[Rackonteur]

Say I have the only Lesser Swiss Valley Dog at Westminster. He is there because he is already a champion, so presumably he is a good example of his breed standard.

So, does he win his class because he is the only dog in in the class? Or does he have to come close enough to the breed standard (get enough points or something) in this judge’s opinion at this show?

So he gets to compete in the Group class. Does he have a realistic chance of winning against, say, the Black and Blue Terrier that beat out 15 other Black and Blues to win Best of her Breed?

I read somewhere (maybe on COTH?) that at a hunter/jumper show, even if one horse is the only one in its class or division, it might not get a first unless it acquires enough points at that particular show.

[Where_sMyWhite]

No expert but I believe a breed judge can withhold BOB but that rarely happens.

Group judging… way too, IMO, “complex” to explain here

Could your dog place in the Group? Sure, anything can happen but IMO not likely. Less popular or common breeds place in the Group less frequently than the more popular or common breeds. Look at WKC stats for how often the individual breeds take Group 1 in their group. It isn’t an even distribution across the breeds.

Black and Blue Terrier… you really mean the Kerry Blue? Or the Black Russian Terrier? AKC doesn’t have a Black and Blue Terrier. Is your dog even in the Terrier Group?

Check out WKC’s web page for breed stats

I also don’t see the “Lesser Swiss Valley” dog so your example is a bit moot.

Can a dog with no other breed competition win BOB, yes.

Can any breed have a chance to take Group 1 and make it to BIS, yes. Does every breed stand the same chance of making it to BIS, no, not in my opinion.

[snowblaze]

I think those are suppose to be fictional breeds of dogs, just used as examples.

I’ve shown a dog in the group that won the breed, but against low enough numbers of her own breed that she didn’t get any points. It was good practice for her, and if she had won the group, she would have picked up points there.

[S1969]

Yes, if you are the only entry, you will likely be the BOB winner. It is possible for a judge to withhold any award in the ring, but it doesn’t happen often. I’ve never seen BOB withheld but I have seen a few other ribbons withheld.

Winning with no competition gives you no points toward a championship or toward “dogs defeated” if your dog is already a champion. But you definitely still have a chance in the group, and if you win the group you will get the highest # of points that any other dog in that group won (because by winning the group you beat them all.)

It’s not uncommon for a good dog to be the only one still in its breed, but it is still shown because the owners/handlers know it is good and has a chance of winning its group or BIS. For example, the Sussex Spaniel that won the Sporting Group is often the only entry in its breed at other dog shows.

[bdj]

One of the things to keep in mind about the judging of Groups and BIS at a dog show is that the dogs are not being judged against each other at that point. Group and BIS judges are (supposed to be) comparing each dog against it’s standard, and whichever dog is closest to the standard (regardless of breed) is the winner. That said, there are plenty of other factors that may come into play, but as S1969 noted, if the single dog of it’s breed is just that good, it doesn’t matter if it beats 100 other dogs or zero.

Oh, and while judges can withhold ribbons, it’s very rare - because if a judge gets a reputation for withholding ribbons, they’re not likely to get hired much…

[ElisLove]

Yes, it’s likely it will get BOB, and it could very well get a group placement if it’s a better example of it’s breed than the other dog who beat dogs of it’s own breed.

[Rackonteur]

Thanks, everyone. That practice makes sense to me. I just didn’t know, so decided to ask people who would know.

snowblaze, you’re right, I just made up those breeds. I know there are people here who show, as well as other breed fanciers, so I wanted to be as objective as possible and not use any actual breed names… I did see one real dog that was the only one in its breed class, and that is what raised the question in my mind.

S1969, thank you for reminding me about the championship points. I think I did know that a long time ago, but if I did, I forgot it almost as long ago!

And does each breed have its own series of numbers, so that if that fictitious terrier was Black and Blue Terrier Number Sixteen, that would mean there were at least sixteen B&B Terriers at the show? Because come to think of it, I’ve never heard the announcer say “This is [Breed Name] Number Two Thousand Two Hundred Ninety-Nine.”

[ElisLove]

Normally it’s just your show number, like at a horse show. However I’m not sure how this changes at westminster where there would have been a ton of dogs and none of the group winners had a high number so they must do something different

[Sandysmom]

I think numbers are randomly assigned. I think I heard some where that odd numbers were dogs and even numbers birches but I’m not sure that’s true.

[S1969]

@Sandysmom

I think numbers are randomly assigned. I think I heard some where that odd numbers were dogs and even numbers birches but I’m not sure that’s true.

That’s the case in every show but Westminster, for some unknown reason. Normally bitches are given even numbers and dogs are given odd, which is a help to judges and spectators.

But the numbers aren’t definitely the # of entries. Not sure why but they never start at #1. Looking at the Westminster catalog my breed starts with #6.

[Where_sMyWhite]

Maybe entered and then withdrawn?

[S1969]

@Where'sMyWhite

Maybe entered and then withdrawn?

No. If you look at the catalog they just start at #6. I wonder if they avoid giving 1-4 because it might get confused with placements in the judges book? At our specialty shows, we always start with #5.

If you get your number in the mail and it’s #5 you can guess you’re the first special. I don’t know why.

[Altag]

@S1969

No. If you look at the catalog they just start at #6. I wonder if they avoid giving 1-4 because it might get confused with placements in the judges book? At our specialty shows, we always start with #5.

If you get your number in the mail and it’s #5 you can guess you’re the first special. I don’t know why.

Correct. To avoid confusion, no dogs are listed as #1 through #4. When verbally referring to First is #Two, it could get very confusing very quickly. LOL.

Also, generally dogs are given odd numbers, bitches even, although that COULD be dependent upon the superintendent who runs the show (takes entries, assigns numbers, prints the catalogue, supplies the ribbons, provides the necessary equipment – ring gates, mats, tables, award signs, judges’ books, etc, etc). At Philly, I remember the odd/even trend wasn’t followed.

[Where_sMyWhite]

In the more “local” shows, there were plenty of times I was #1 and I was showing a bitch in open (and just anal about entering early ).

WKC… probably they’d have to confirm their numbering strategy.

[Altag]

@Where'sMyWhite

In the more “local” shows, there were plenty of times I was #1 and I was showing a bitch in open (and just anal about entering early ).

You had an armband number printed as #1? In an AKC point show? Or was it a match? (A fun match can do whatever on armband numbering, they aren’t bound by AKC rules unless they’re a sanctioned match.) I have never seen an armband #1, and I believe that it’s not correct per the rules, but I don’t have a copy of the rules applying to show superintendents handy.

On the other hand, since I’ve never had to worry about assigning numbers even as show chair, I suppose it might just be traditional. But now I’m really curious as I know it would be awkward for the poor steward to have to deal with armbands numbering 1 to 4 when marking the steward’s catalog. Glad it never happened in my ring (as competitor, judge, or steward)!

[Where_sMyWhite]

IIRC it was a 1 and no, it wasn’t a fun match (I know the difference).

This was many years ago so it could be the rules have changed.