Just curious. Horse in question does not particularly break its back over that great, but it is nice with its front end.
Is jumping “hard” different from jumping green (overjumping)?
And can jumping “hard” be affected by the ride?
I am only going to do him at 2’6" for pete’s sake, so can I teach him to just canter across better?
Some horses just have a harder jump than others. Regardless of what it looks like, it FEELS rough. I have ridden horses that don’t LOOK like they are cracking their back or jumping particularly hard but somehow the feel is completely, back wrenchingly different. I have also ridden horses that crack their back and snap their knees to their necks and feel totally smooth. I can’t ever identify for sure if a horse has a hard jump until I get on it myself.
That said if one cracks its back it will more likely have a hard jump than one that doesn’t. And this has nothing to do with over jumping at all.
I used to ride a mare who even over 2’ would jump HARD, but not particularly pretty.
Ahh, thank you Nick. I was hoping someone like you would chime in.
To me, the horse sort of gets slow at the bottom, then jumps up, which trainer says is sort of the right idea for the big time guys, but not necessarily what I need. I am only going to lope around at 2’6" and it doesn’t bother me, but it would be nice to even him out a bit. Any ideas on that? Do horses get that way by being “held off”?
If I am envisioning what you are describing accurately, that’s the kind of jump you want in the hunters- one that is slow off the ground. If you don’t feel like you are getting jostled out of position by the horse’s style, I would go with it!
Nikki jumps hard - it’s VERY hard to stay with her. You feel like there’s a rocket ship underneath your bum and she launches you straight up out of the saddle.
My joints weep for mercy. I’ve never ridden a horse who cracks the back so hard. It doesn’t matter what kind of distance we get, she just jumps HARD. I don’t think horses get that way because of a certain ride… I think they’re just born with a style. It might be reinforced by the rider (i.e. you can make a good jumper worse), but I don’t think you can train a horse to jump hard.
She also overjumps when she’s in the mood, but it doesn’t feel any different, just takes a longer time to get to the ground.
EmJ628, sort of. It is new horse, and his new job is not so much to be a fancy hunter, but to pack around his elderly mom (I am 61) without too much jostle over tiny jumps. And actually, it is not that he has such a great jump.
My more general question I suppose, is whether that “pro” ride of sort of “shaping” the jump, or maybe holding them off a bit, can affect how “hard” they jump. In other words, can a more amateur type of ride even them out a bit?
That helps supershorty…so far we are fine, but I don’t want to worry about that flyer big distance I am eventually and inevitably going to ask him for! Glad to hear it is not so much the distance you get her to!
Hmm…I’ve had my 17yr old TB for 7 years, I am not a professional (bought him as a junior, I am now “amateur age”), and he STILL jumps really hard, really big, and cracks his back. He didn’t know how to jump when we bought him, so a pro didn’t shape his jump in any way, but as he figured out how to use his body, his technique got more consistent and he is typically just a big, hard jumper. Now sometimes if I am very careful about how I ride him, I can get a quieter more hunter type jump but I have to establish a big slow-ish canter (slow for him anyway), then put him on a loopy rein, add leg, keep my shoulders back, and let him find his own spot no matter how much I’d like to compress his stride and package him together. When I jump him like that I can usually get a quieter jump. Usually.
Maybe if you set him up for a little longer distance (perhaps with a pole in front of the jump) it’ll encourage him to take off a little earlier and flatter, therefore smoother? It seems strange to encourage a flatter jump, but I can understand how tiring it is to ride a horse that jumps like that…really jostles you lol.
Agreed with the above. To me, a horse that jumps hard really pats the ground in front - i.e., sets itself up very sharply and launches itself off the ground quickly and with great force. They can still be extremely tight and correct in front, but before you know it, you’re in the air and flying, whereas with a quiet, slow-jumping hunter or equitation horse, you have a moment to pause off the ground, have a cup of tea, and allow yourself to follow the motion.
I rode HJ for a couple of years when I first started re-riding and agree with Goodlife about the mechanism. There’s a lot of physics involved, arcs and acceleration plus how much “spring” a given horse chooses to use.
The trainer I work for has a few horses who jump ‘hard’ due to physical limitations and confirmation. These 2 horses are Quarter Horses retrained to doing English/Hunters. They are adorable guys but are built so down hill and butt high that it feels like they are landing on their heads as they jump. They are hard jumps to stay with and not particularly stylish jumps either, which is why they will never jump over 2’3-2’6". Some horses are just confirmationally built to jump harder.
I’ve never heard that expression, but as a jumper, we look for horses that really rock back and pat the ground and train for that. I could see how that might be a hard feel for a rider learning the ropes though. Once a horse knows how to do it, I would think it would be hard to train in the opposite direction without negatively affecting the horse’s jump, ie, getting it sloppy and flat. It isn’t a canter thing that can be fixed bc it isn’t something that is broken. I would look for a horse that naturally is a little less dynamic/powerful of a jumper, which seems to be what your trainer is suggesting.
Edit:; on rereading, it seems you already bought him so your best bet is to learn to ride the jump and work with your pro. Once you get the feel, it isn’t bad, just make sure you don’t jump ahead lest he snap you out of the tack! 
getting a g ok d feel for his canter and guiding home to nice out of stride spots will help as well as the snap more on closer distances to allow them to really power up and over (think about riding to the base of a tall wide oxer).
I’d recommend cantering a zillion poles on the ground, then cantering a million 6" cross rails, then cantering a million 2’ jumps. The more bored he gets the smoother his jump will LIKELY get. That is unless he’s just one that has a particularly hard jump regardless of what you do.
I could come down your way sometime and ride him for you if you want. Particularly on the break week between Colorado shows I’m pretty free.
Thank you so much Nick. That’s what I think too. Canter over lots of little stuff — he is definitely flatter over little stuff and when he is not fresh. He was a little tense for his first time at Rose Palace last weekend.
I have been trying to visualize jumping across and me staying very soft at takeoff. Plus, like JR did, he will learn just how little effort his new job is! I would love a visit ANYTIME!!! Good luck in CO!!! Post for us!
On the bright side, his “hard” jump is a good thing, you don’t want him to lose it, if it means what we’ve always used the term to mean, which is a horse that snaps its front end out of the way, a round bascule and has an elaborate hind follow through with its hind end. Of course that is not easy to ride, but it is a good thing.
The most important thing you need to do is sit up and put your leg on at the base. Support your horse so it isn’t just jumping up but keeps jumping forward and across the fence. Some careful horses with good natural technique can get stuck in the air and “hang up” if you don’t keep the going forward and ride them all the way over the jumps. Low, wide oxers can help them stretch too, as well as placing poles before and after the jumps (9’ before, 10’ after).
Not sure what you mean by “driving at the bottom” but make sure you aren’t dropping him at the base. It will make everything worse. With my horse with this style, it actually helps to add leg on takeoff, even though otherwise he’s a delicate flower that doesn’t much care for leg. It keeps him going forward instead of just up. Good luck, he sounds lovely and once you learn to ride it, his jump will be an advantage!
Thank you fordtraktor…I will experiment. He is “step down” horse, to live forever on my farm and pack me around at 2’6" for as long as I can do it. He has the personality (not that easy to find by the way!), just needs to learn how easy his job is. At the level I show, the judges tend to judge the whole trip more than “the Jump”.
I went through this with my other horse, who was stepping down from 3’6" and now almost sings how smooth and easy he is as he goes around. At the last show, he tripped on the short side, I accidentally dropped my reins, and he cantered down the next line with my reins flapping.
Could he be losing steam at the base? Some horses do rock back, take their time getting off of the ground, and then really crack their back, but maybe it is more of an impulsion issue. If he is loping up and losing steam, he may then be digging in at the base and giving a bit of a lurch when taking off. Does he give the same jump when ridden a hair over tempo? Perhaps he just needs a bit of time to realize that he can maintain a nice forward step all the way up to the fence without backing off or dropping his front end at the base.
I disagree with the fast vs slow. There are horses who are quick off the ground who jump in a way that is smooth to the rider. A good equitation horse will feel smooth no matter if you are being lethargic down to the jump or hand galloping. Patting the ground vs not also isn’t a primary indicator. As supershorty said, it’s their style in the air regardless of how high (though higher the jump or overjumping may launch you the rider higher) or how quick they are off the ground. I had a horse who jumped hard, and he was a type you needed to hold off a little at the base to help him rock onto his haunches. I’ve had an eq horse that had a more light in front pat the ground style and he was smooth and flat in the air, as he should be. I’ve had a horse with a tremendous bascule who neither was a lopey type or a pat the ground type (I’d say just average motion on take off) but boy could his withers knock the wind out of me. Didn’t matter if the jump was 2’6 or 3’6. Last week, I rode a horse that looked like he jumped hard because he’s sort of a hurl himself over the jump type, but in reality was one of the smoothest in the air I’ve ever sat on.
TLDR - it’s all about how it feels to the rider and it’s the horse’s natural style. Some things like a bigger bascule may tend to make for a harder feeling jump but it’s hard to make those kinds of generalizations because horses with good style or bad, big looking motion or not, may all feel different to the rider.
I agree with Nick that it’s sometimes hard to tell if a horse is a hard jumper until you are on them.
IME, the hardest jump to me is the horse that is really lifting its withers and powering from behind. This may or may not equate to a good jumping effort. Some of the hardest jumpers I’ve experienced have terrible form over the jump. They are awful with their front ends so they lift and power off the ground so they don’t have to do anything with those front legs. And then there are some that do the same thing but have text book front ends.
Yes, I guess I come at it from a jumper perspective so as long as the front end isn’t dangerous I don’t really care terribly if it isn’t textbook in front. It’s behind that I care about so a horse that powers up from behind usually does equate with “good” from my view. I can see where over 2’6 in the hunters this might be a disadvantage…such a horse very well might not care about being square over speed bumps. The good news is you can often tidy the front end with gymnastics, tight ones to square oxers and bounces will often clean up the front end even on a horse like this. At least enough for OP’s purposes, teaching it to be a bit happier to cart her around with less effort involved. OP, the bounces are particularly good because they can’t power through them and have to learn how to use their front ends so it can help it dawn on them that it is easier to do so than to jump big all the time.
[QUOTE=fordtraktor;7599422]
Yes, I guess I come at it from a jumper perspective so as long as the front end isn’t dangerous I don’t really care terribly if it isn’t textbook in front. It’s behind that I care about so a horse that powers up from behind usually does equate with “good” from my view. .[/QUOTE]
Ah, but don’t you think that is only true to an extent? The horse that over compensates for a loose front end by power off from behind/lifting the withers/jumping higher is not going to be the best candidate for a GP jumper. There are some that do just fine, but in the end, they are ones with better technique that are better candidates, no matter how much power the other generates from the hind end.
(my post is in general and not really related to the OP’s issue with her horse.)
OP: how long have you been riding this horse? I find I can adjust to most horse’s jump. It may take a little time, but it happens. For instance, my new mare: When I first starting jumping her, I was all over the place because she felt so round. Really what it was was different. Now, it just feels normal to me. She’s got a really nice, round jump in her…I just haven’t accessed it yet as we are jumping small. I just grab mane when I’m worried about a powerful jump and now that I will figure it out with some practice.
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