Question for judges re: automatic releases

[Greenbrier]

Every time I try to post a reply for the past week I get blown off! I’ll try again!

Thank you very much Bumpkin, Dublin, Hillary, a work in progress, and Laurie B for your comments.

My thoughts - the auto release is more effectively used in the hunter divisions because most importantly it allows a horse to attain its best jumping form. It also can be used to improve jumping form. The only time I could say that I use what looks like a crest release was in the equitation classes. When I rode my hunter “War Dress” in the equitation in the 70’s my release looks more like a crest release but iit’s still an auto release. In equitation you will be taking more of a hold and loose the auto release look - you the rider are riding the round and being judged accordingly. In the hunters with the auto release you tend to have a slacker rein because the most perfect auto release - with straight line- comes from a rider and horse being in total unison with each other.
About a shorter stirrup helping to attain a better auto release - I don’t think that has anything to do with it. I rode my ponies in a shorter stirrup sometimes, and in the junior hunters I rode a hole or two shorter than in the equitation. An auto release comes from a solid seat and legs which are used in conjunction but independently of the hands. Does anyone remeber those exercises that Frank and Wayne Carroll used to make us do - like riding without your hands aroud and around, and the two point position with your hands up off of the neck(no support whatsoever! - at the beginning of each lesson which used to kill us?

[Bumpkin]

So does Dublin, that is the book about Emerson Burr’s students and ponies.
Polaris Make Believe and Kim Reichhelm.

Welcome back!!!
It is nice to see you are back on and posting!!
Love to read your comments on auto vs crest!!!

Bumpkin Auto Release

[BronkBusterTX]

Personally I would like to see the Auto Release reintroduced as one of the tests. Maybe trotting a jump?? I think this would show the amount-or lack thereof-of upper body control and overall security.

I think that the Auto Release should be taught to all Maiden, Novice, Limit riders. I don’t believe that we will ever see the Auto Release widely used in the equitation classes.

As far as different riders are concerned, like Beezie and Michael and a few others, I’ve seen Beezie use a lovely Auto Release from time to time. And Michael didn’t use the Auto Release (at least not often) he is famous for on a few of his Grand Prix mounts such as Bon Retour and Schnapps.

I think it depends greatly on the specific situation at the time.

[M_O_Connor]

better than they were 3-4 years ago…Automatic releases are rare–perhaps because someone has succeeded in spinning the yarn that they are not desireable in the equitation division-(I will, as a matter of fact bring that to the attention of the AHSA’s-or whatever they are calling themselves- Lic Officials and Equitation Committees)-they are rare, that is, except in the BEST company…the truly gifted riders that get the job done with the most efficiency and style are not afraid to use it–and do use it, and they win classes like the CK Equitation at the Hampton Classic…

As for when to introduce it—I was incredibly impressed several years ago when I attended a trainers clinic at Hunterdon to see George Morris teach an automatic release to a group of advanced beginner/intermediate level demonstration riders, including a 10 or 11 year old on a medium pony…At that point, I began to think that we probably err on the side of protecting the horse’s mouth for too long…yes, the elite riders are the ones who can be depended on to demonstrate an automatic release consistantly, but riders of a far lesser calibre are capable of learning how to separate their balance from their hands and arms, develop a solid base (hardly ever see one of those below Grand Prix level these days) and to use their hands and arms independently. But I wonder how many trainers are comfortable teaching this…used to be, a riders FIRST trainer stressed independent balance from the get-go…seems to be not so important now as getting the rider into the show ring on that been-there done-that horse or pony…

[Merry]

Oh my gosh, gwen, you used an auto release AND wore rust breeches? Isn’t that a sign of a rip in the time/space continuum?

My trainer literally told me to “burn” my TS rust breeches… or at least to never wear them attending a show where she was coaching me. Now the automatic release, she’d applaud, because she’s of my generation.

“Charter Member of the Baby Greenie Support Group of North America”

[PaigeHortman]

Sorry that you all had to bite my head off for my comment, did I say it was correct? NO! I said whether it is correct or not, it is WHAT YOU SEE…I dont think you guys think twicr before hurting someones feelings…If you are so angry with riding style these days, then boycott horse shows, stop talking about how horrible all these people are b/c they use a CR, In the eq ur not usually expected to drop your hands over the jump, I KNOW it helps the horse, I do jumpers too and yes I do use it…it helps your horse so much to get over the jumps…you can keep saying how bad the eq is these days, but this is how it is, and i am sorry but I dont see it changing anytime soon, but if you think you can change it, more power to you, I was just stating what I SEE in the eq ring, NOT WHAT IS CORRECT, i watched the eq at lake placid, devon, and all over, and I see the winning trips everytime doing a CR, but oh well, sorry to make you all SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO angry!

[gwen]

But obviously the judge was looking the horse and rider rather than what i was wearing and it make have not been the TRUE automatic release but my trainer said it was 3/4 of the way there!!! It takes alot of practice…she has me do alot without reins through gymnastics to get balanced over my feet and then take the reins back and keep it…But that is when I go home to CT to ride!! It really does feel great!!!

EITHER i was riding right OR the judge felt sorry for me…but there were some great riders with me…so I am guessing he liked me…which is wonderful.maybe he likes the change!!!

Barb

I have always been the type of rider that looks different from everyone else…I always sit really tall…always have…even when i was younger and the style was more of a closed hip angle…but there was me tall as can be!!! The videos tell it all…you could pick me out in a second!!! Some judges LOVED it and some didn’t even look at me…SO i think the more people do this auto release, the more judges will accept it…They never see it and I think they would love it!!!

The judge at this show actually commented on my riding which is SUCH a complement…it was such a pleasure to here him say i looked so relaxed and with the horse…that means I wasn’t perching or stiff…I have had a habit of being a little stiff in my days…but with this, it just felt like the best i’ve ridden…

[Sleepy]

Sorry, Gofer, I don’t buy that. We did a lot of basic dressage and flat work in the 70’s and in the 80’s we were riding hunters in a frame. BUT, we used a longer stirrup on the flat (but not as long as some of these kids today) and a shorter stirrup over fences. I think this just what’s being taught now and I have no idea how it evolved because of the 12 year break I took from horses. I didn’t actually quit riding until 1990 but I quit showing in '88. I personally think these poufy saddles they ride in today are a contributing factor as well.

[jreventer]

Since everyone wants to hear my opinion(hehe, just joking, but this is a great discussion!)…I have skimmed the thread, no time to read it all but here’s what I see/have noticed…
i event, foxhunt, and do some jumpers-the only hunters I have done are 4-H and to promote sell horses…
growing up I was never told to do an auto/crest release…the words were never used. what I was taught was to follow my horse, to always be there to support them but to not get in their way so over time I developed what is termed an auto release…i don’t think about it I do it…if the horse needs something different than I do something different…with my older mare I had to do an auto release and follow her through the whole jump else she wouldn’t jump…that’s the way she jumped the best so that’s what I did…with my five year now I have recently been using more os a crest release during lessons only because I want him to be able to figure it all out for himself…but on cx I use an auto release always…I want to have continuous contact so when I land and go on I am right there with the horse…in foxhunting most people tend to use an auto release I have seen but they don’t think about it…
the reasons I see for the crest release being used:
you MUST have an independent seat and legs and hands to be able to use an auto-too many of today’s riders don’t have this…they aren’t spending enough time in the saddle, on the lunge, without stirrups, over gymnastics, galloping across fields…
stirrup length-the difference between my dressage stirrups and my jumping in the same saddle is at least three-four holes…as an outsider at hunter shows I see people riding with way too long stirrups-how can you get up off your horse if your stirrups are so long…
trainers/winning/judges-a combination of the customers wanting to see wins, the trainers having to find a way to get their students to win to suit the customers even if they aren’t riding the “correct” way…the judges having to award the best crest release they see…until people start trying to make a change it won’t happen…
the way of the “hunter” world(I am using hunters as an example, crest releases are used too much in general)…more of today’s horses are “made” on a made horse the crest release may look better and it may not be necessary to do an auto to get the best results…
i am attaching a picture of me and my mare on cx…this is pretty much what most of my releases look like…

“There are times when you can trust a horse, time when you can’t, and times when you have to.”

[dublin]

I’m just wondering if any of you judging equitation o/f classes see people using automatic releases, like most of us who showed in the 60’s and 70’s were taught?

Although I no longer show, while spectating at a number of California shows, and in looking through numerous pictures in the Chronicle, Show Circuit and the AHSA Horse Show magazine, I must admit all I see is crest releases, right up through the recent AHSA and Maclay Medal finals winners. (Despite GM’s constant comments that people should be progressing past a crest release to an auto release/following hand…)

I read a recent comment on this bb from someone who didn’t even know what an auto release was, and it got me wondering whether many of the current trainers ever used one when they were showing, and/or even know how (and try) to teach it?

Do any of you think it will ever come back into favor in the eq divisions?

“Of course, that’s just my opinion. I could be wrong.” - Dennis Miller

[subk]

Kudzu is a plant introduced to the Southern U.S from its native growing region somewhere in Asia as a good quickly growing ground cover to fight errosion. It is so happy in the South that it just takes over–it grows 18 inches a day on a good hot, humid southern summer day. You can drive for miles in Alabama and see nothing but… it covers and smothers everything from trees to house trailers and is nearly imposible to get rid of. It’s now the poster child for stopping the importation of exotic plants. sbk

[Dementia_13]

Buckybu, trust me, it is a losing argument. Best just to nod politely and agree that indeed it was wonderful back there in the olden days and by golly, these young whippersnappers don’t know a darn thing about a proper release.

[dublin]

How specifically does a crest release, (as opposed to an auto release) encourage a horse to be round and soft over a fence? I would think an auto release would allow a horse the most freedom to use himself to the fullest, but am I way off in thinking this???

“Of course, that’s just my opinion. I could be wrong.” - Dennis Miller

[dublin]

how a crest release allows a horse more freedom in the air over a jump than an automatic release does, having been taught just the
opposite

I’m not trying to stir up anything here, but I would love to know the theory behind this, as the crest releases I see in photo after photo today appear generally to be much more restrictive than an automatic release would be…but maybe I’m missing something!!

“Of course, that’s just my opinion. I could be wrong.” - Dennis Miller

[AAJumper]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bumpkin:
Oh those “chutes”, those were fun. I wonder if any trainers do those anymore?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, they do! At least mine has! It was after a show, I can’t remember when, but sometime this year. Anyway, my trainer decided we were ALL going to do the chute. It was fun! My friend didn’t think so though…it totally freaked her out!!!

[findeight]

George Morris has recently admitted he is responsible for popularizing the crest release at the expense of the auto but his motives were pure in starting it.Most amateur and child riders aren’t strong enough to not interfere with the horse. The crest release may not be classic but a mistake with an auto release will slam the horse every time. The crest release is always safe. I would imagine an accomplished rider with an auto release would tie well up in the eq. but see far too many at the shows trying to do it at the expense of the horse. Again it is an advanced thecnique left for the advanced rider.

[M_O_Connor]

to this thread that I couldn’t stop myself!! I hope fellow BB’er, Taryn, who took the photos at the big CSI/Blenheim Grand Prix this past weekend doesn’t mind–she is still busy posting loads of shots on the Off Course forum…Anyway, here is Joe Fargis on Edgar…

[Bumpkin]

This is a good one to go with what is being discussed right now

“Have You Hugged Your Trainer Today?”

[smashing_fishnets_an]

the 7’2" wall…
i too would be giving a huge release and burying my face in my horse’s neck…saying GET ME OVER THIS PLEASE!! YOU CAN HAVE ALL THE CARROTS IN THE WORLD IF YOU just GET ME OVER IT W/O KILLING ME!!
really…if you think about it, while we jump we end up being 3-4’ above the jump(where we humans’ heads are anyway), so 7’2"…SHE was seeing level at about 11’ and my goodness i would be scared out of my mind! not to mention the kind of horse it takes to clear a fence of that height!!

[ccoronios]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Personally, I think the reason the GM mention the auto release in his columns all the time is feels guilty that he introduced the thing in the first place and it’s turned out to be like kudzu. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>