Question on black thoroughbreds

[JB]

It’s the JC - 'nuff said LOL

I mean, they still register buckskins as bay, have only in the last couple of years started recognizing palomino as what it is instead of registering them all chestnut, and still think Roan exists (and for all intents and purposes, it doesn’t, the 1 South America line doesn’t really count as far as they are concerned, all grays still easily get registered “roan”).

They, like the APHA), made up their own rules as to what’s what and just can’t imagine detouring into reality

[Gamma_Raise]

[hijack]

[QUOTE=CharingHounds;6749350]

Helyna
Here’s another shot of her:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=363350783742427&set=a.363350553742450.84931.355399697870869&type=3&theater[/QUOTE]
is she a bit clubfooted on the L fore? She seems to be very unevenly trimmed in front. [/hijack]

[JB]

Gamma - she does have a high-low situation going on that is probably genetic and will neve be evened out. However, she’s very poorly trimmed for sure which exaggerates the high/low look. Poor girl.

[CharingHounds]

[QUOTE=Gamma Raise;6750067]
[hijack]
is she a bit clubfooted on the L fore? She seems to be very unevenly trimmed in front. [/hijack][/QUOTE]

Yes, you’re correct.
I remember her having a slight club foot as a 2 yr old when I had contact with her but she didn’t have shoes on then (it was winter). The farrier at that time trimmed her very nicely and it didn’t look bad. I haven’t had any contact with her in 2 years but the farrier that was doing her when this shot was taken is actually a decent farrier.
Even so, her club foot sure does look bad here…

[kookicat]

[QUOTE=CharingHounds;6747990]
Here’s one whose color was obviously registered incorrectly. Her name is Helyna’s Dreaming and she is registered with the Jockey Club as “dark bay or brown” but she’s not dark and her tail is nearly blonde!?!
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=363350573742448&set=a.363350553742450.84931.355399697870869&type=3&theater[/QUOTE]

Pretty girl! Looks like she could be silver.

[florida_foxhunter]

Claim to Fame’s dam was a dark brown/or bay TB (but basically black)…however, Counterclaim seem s different kind of black…a true “blue” black…
Never seen that black in a TB, but perhaps others have!

[Timex]

I’ve got a black tb mare, reg’d as dk bay. Not a single brown hair on the beast. But certainly a whole lot easier to play it safe with the jc!

[msbrown246]

gulastra plume, maybe? there is a photo of this if you scroll down, also a TB. The whole website on horse color is quite interesting!

http://www.whitehorseproductions.com/ecg_basics4.html

[QUOTE=CharingHounds;6747990]
Here’s one whose color was obviously registered incorrectly. Her name is Helyna’s Dreaming and she is registered with the Jockey Club as “dark bay or brown” but she’s not dark and her tail is nearly blonde!?!
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=363350573742448&set=a.363350553742450.84931.355399697870869&type=3&theater[/QUOTE]

[TrueColours]

CHaringHounds - she’s a different one for sure!

My favorite of all is my RFF Pearlescent mare. She is perlino, which is a double dilute of the bay gene. Her breeder went through the trouble of getting all of her genetic tests done at Davis - the same lab the JC uses. She is basically a red tinged white colour with ice blue eyes.

She is registered as palomino - the single dilute of the CHESTNUT gene … :rolleyes:

I have had so many discussions with the JC about her and asked if they could please register her as bay - which is her base coat colour.

Nope - wont do it :no:

So - I said … as a “palomino”, if I breed her to a chestnut stallion and a buckskin foal comes out, red flags will go up - wont they? Because genetically speaking you breed chestnut to chestnut and you HAVE to get chestnut base - correct? And they agreed - yes red flags would go up and more testing would be needed …

And I said for God’s sakes then - why dont you do it correctly from the get go and register her as bay so that doesnt happen???

And they said because she doesnt LOOK bay, she cant be registered as bay. They then gave me the option of changing her papers to “white” instead …

BANG HEAD … BANG HEAD … BANG HEAD …

[allanglos]

My veterinarian has a TB mare for sale that she said was dk bay or brown. When I saw her I thought she was a black. So the vet had her DNA tested and she is not only black, but homozygous black. She had a wonderful Escapade filly (photo attached) this year and is bred back. Of course the filly is black:)

Here is her pedigree, and she is registered as a dk bay/brown.

[CharingHounds]

Yes!

[QUOTE=msbrown246;6752128]
gulastra plume, maybe? there is a photo of this if you scroll down, also a TB. The whole website on horse color is quite interesting!

http://www.whitehorseproductions.com/ecg_basics4.html[/QUOTE]

Yes, msbrown246 she does look like the gulastra plume!:yes:

TC, I think it’s a shame that the JC is so limited with their color options and “definitions”. Which is why I couldn’t see Helyna’s Dreaming being registered the color she was (because of the JC’s definition of the color - requiring a black tail, etc). I don’t know why the JC won’t adjust the color options and definitions.

I understand that breeders who are breeding to race may not be as concerned with color as breeders for other disciplines. And if there is a question or uncertainty about a horse’s color it may be expensive to do the testing, and would add another complication to the registration process.

But I think it causes misrepresentation in the TB breed. Your gorgeous perlino TB mare is a perfect example. You can predict the probable or exact colors of foals from matings when the correct (real) color of the parents/family is known.

And actually I can see where race breeders could find correct color registration helpful. Conformation should be first priority of course. But if a foal exhibits similar characteristics of a parent or ancestor (like temperament and/or color), it stands to reason that the foal might have an extra chance of being similar to that parent/ancestor in talent. If a foal was born with an unlikely (but possible) color that matched a particularly talented performer that appeared in the pedigree, I might be a little excited. I think TBs registered with “convenient” colors muddies the family history…

Not really sure if I’m making sense here - sorry… :o

[crosscreeksh]

The JC is a Thoroughbred “race/performance” registry. The color options are for the racing folks - officials, announcers and betting public to be able to identify the individual horses as they see them on the track. The specific genetic tests just came into play when we, sport TB breeders started caring what colors an individual horse would produce. The JC does NOT care if they look like zebras…it is the general impression tha counts. We have a PURE white, pink skinned gelding who is registered “gray or roan, no white markings”. Same as Puchi’s Rambo…a loud, VERY chestnut and white overo. JC doesn’t care!!!

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=crosscreeksh;6754356]
The JC is a Thoroughbred “race/performance” registry. The color options are for the racing folks - officials, announcers and betting public to be able to identify the individual horses as they see them on the track. The specific genetic tests just came into play when we, sport TB breeders started caring what colors an individual horse would produce. The JC does NOT care if they look like zebras…it is the general impression tha counts. We have a PURE white, pink skinned gelding who is registered “gray or roan, no white markings”. Same as Puchi’s Rambo…a loud, VERY chestnut and white overo. JC doesn’t care!!![/QUOTE]

While this is true to a certain extent it serves a greater purpose; to insure the integrity of a race where a lot of money is being bet. The horses entered are the horses who’s breeding and past performances the public is wagering on. The JC is not as concerned about color as it is markings. Cowlicks/whorls, type and location especially on horses that have no white markings. Socks, size and location, blaze, snips, white hairs and location on the body, chestnuts(not the color), the color of the tail rarely comes into play. Though off colors at the dock of the tail need to be included. All of this will be described in detail on the horse’s certificate of registration. Before a horse can race it has to get a lip tattoo and before the tattoo is applied an appointed identifier will “match” the papers to the horse. This is somewhat subjective when it comes to colors and if the identifier feels the horse is not described property, color and or certain details were left out by the breeder they will require the owner to get a corrected certificate and include the details the identifier feels are necessary. The majority of TBs are registered as weanlings or short yearlings and we all know regardless of breed coat color can and does change with age. The markings do not. When a horse goes to the paddock for their race they are met by the official horse identifier who will check the lip tattoo and match it to the one that has been recorded on the JC certificate. If the tattoo is illegible they will check the markings on the “papers” to the horse. Pure black and pure white are rare colors in TBs. Not as much with foals or short yearlings, thought white is, and more times then not things change by the time they get to the races so I guess the JC decided scrutinize these 2. As others have said we are not that concerned with color per-se so it’s just less hassle to register as a dark bay.

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=allanglos;6752729]
My veterinarian has a TB mare for sale that she said was dk bay or brown. When I saw her I thought she was a black. So the vet had her DNA tested and she is not only black, but homozygous black. She had a wonderful Escapade filly (photo attached) this year and is bred back. Of course the filly is black:)

Here is her pedigree, and she is registered as a dk bay/brown.[/QUOTE]

IMO based on the picture I would not say this horse would qualify as a black TB. I won’t argue what the DNA test says. An Official Horse Identifier does not go by that for reasons stated in my above post.

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=CharingHounds;6753106]
Yes, msbrown246 she does look like the gulastra plume!:yes:

And actually I can see where race breeders could find correct color registration helpful. Conformation should be first priority of course. But if a foal exhibits similar characteristics of a parent or ancestor (like temperament and/or color), it stands to reason that the foal might have an extra chance of being similar to that parent/ancestor in talent. If a foal was born with an unlikely (but possible) color that matched a particularly talented performer that appeared in the pedigree, I might be a little excited. I think TBs registered with “convenient” colors muddies the family history…

Not really sure if I’m making sense here - sorry… :o[/QUOTE]

You do make sense and actually we do and for the reason you have stated.

[allanglos]

[QUOTE=gumtree;6756665]
IMO based on the picture I would not say this horse would qualify as a black TB. I won’t argue what the DNA test says. An Official Horse Identifier does not go by that for reasons stated in my above post.[/QUOTE]

The photo is of her 10 month old Escapade filly, which is black. The TB dam looks more black, even though both are genetically black.

[allanglos]

Here is the homozygous black TB mare.

[crosscreeksh]

If you are not dealing with a racing TB, you can call/register them black if you want. If they are some odd color that only shows up in DNA, I’d staple a copy of the test results to the foal papers. That way every owner down the line will know for sure.

[fearless.in.the.iron]

My ottb is registered as a “Seal Bay”. Never had him tested genetically, but he seems pretty black to me.

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff9/HorsieGirl399/Facebook/Profile%20Pictures/197027_1970153054966_2412947_n.jpg

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff9/HorsieGirl399/Facebook/Profile%20Pictures/253536_2118747449733_4811198_n.jpg

[JB]

He does indeed look black, but, I have also seen a very, very black horse, not a lick of brown on him, test “bay” (which would mean brown if he’d been tested at Pet DNA), so that’s why you can’t go based on color alone