Questioning a board price increase - yes, I understand inflation

[Alterration]

@candyappy

Nobody said you have to compromise on care. Many barns are pretty basic and are able to offer great quality care. Many of us backyard horse owners give our horses the best care as well.

I think perhaps this is a bit of a misunderstanding too

Let’s just talk about bedding for a moment - a major advantage point of our barn was the deep straw bedding that we use. Is sawdust “adequate”? Sure. And cheaper. However it has a number of disadvantages in our setting (dust being among them). We could reduce the amount of straw we use in each stall, or switch bedding types, but we’ve already sold them on the benefits of nice deep straw bedding as we also believe it to be superior. So what do we do if costs increase wildly? Do we cut corners? Switch types?

Could we not paint fences, or pick paddocks? Sure. We could “not” do those and have those things be considered adequate care. But our boarders would notice, and start to question whether we were taking shortcuts elsewhere.

I’m just trying to give you some examples as to why it’s not as simple as just “not doing some things” or doing things differently as it’s not quite like a restaurant where customers are just coming in daily and may not notice when things change.

This IS much more like my SaaS businesses. When you establish long relationships with someone they expect things to be the same (or better) as when they came in the door. They do not expect you to reduce service levels, even if it means the care would be adequate if you did so. They also don’t generally expect to pay more for increased service levels if they didn’t specifically ask for them (and sometimes even if they did). These perception changes are risky and can really wreck your business in a small market.

[candyappy]

@clanter

When I had my service businesses (overhead door company and a company that did access control work automatic gate operator systems) I had both stop working for the general public as often the “rich” were really slow pay.

There was only one client that I kept

I guess maybe that is why they have money?? Guess paying my bills promptly is the wrong way to go about it.

[Mander]

When a late paycheck won’t make or break you, it’s hard to remember that not everyone has that privilege.

[hut-ho78]

I’ve had to have Campbell’s soup, the inexpensive kind I think it was $1.07 for days waiting on payday to pay my vet bill.

Now I can stay at a nice place.

I’ve had horses at my home and boarded. I have never run a boarding barn or owned one. I have great appreciation for those who do.

It helps boarders understand if the owner can communicate expenses especially if the boarder has to leave if the board goes up. However, some boarders are really difficult. Not me, of course haha. I’m dumbfounded when I hear fellow boarders explain what the BO can sacrifice to keep the boarder’s costs down.

From selling off “excess” turnout (it’s not excess, they don’t understand grass, mud holes, sand pits, etc) to putting the beloved retired old Dobbin and Old Nellie down.

It is a really difficult job. 24/7 and trying to balance expenses with costs and keep boarders. Getting boarders to pay is another fun task. Yes, especially the ones that live in the most posh neighborhood in town.

Great thanks to the barn owners. Keeping horses at the house as a hobby can be a challenge. Then you have to possibly haul out to a farrier. Feed and hay cost a lot. Picking manure, maintenance, being there for every horse appointment. Paying for the extra land.

I am grateful to board especially after aging and needing more help.

[findeight]

Just because they appear “rich” doesn’t mean they are not overextended and waiting on a late paycheck, bonus or commission. Have had barmates purchase high 5 figure+ horses/ponies, run up big training and show bills and run out of money owing thousands.

Running barns catering to upper end clientele have exactly the same problems as serving mid to lower level clients. Trainers learn the hard way to price services properly and not assume client funds are currently there and liquid, no matter the Tesla. They aren’t there to be nice and/or allow clients to habitually carry a balance. So they often come off as blunt or bitchy to some clients and end up trashed online for persistently trying to collect whats owed them.

That is unique to the horse industry and, I’ve heard, dogs but no personal experience there.

[Mander]

@findeight

Have had barmates purchase high 5 figure+ horses/ponies, run up big training and show bills and run out of money owing thousands.

Yikes. I feel like this is the financial equivalent of the “if I’m gonna be 5 minutes late, I may as well be 15 minutes late with coffee” mentality.

[Miss_Motivation]

Back to the overall topic at hand, board cost increases.

I see only four options to the current challenges of running commercial boarding businesses in suburban settings:

1 Reduce services or costs by buying cheaper supplies, hiring less labor, deferring maintenance, etc.
2 Increase board some estimated amount that encourages the barn owner to continue the business.
3 Do nothing, which basically means the business becomes insolvent and fails.
4 Sell the business/property and let the three choices above fall to someone else.

We are in uncharted waters here with many aspects of the US economy and challenges to the way of horsekeeping most of us have come to expect. I’m surprised by the folks I meet who seem to live in such a bubble that they find a board increase these days to be both a surprise and somehow unfair.

[SadieRidingHorses]

@meupatdoes

Why would you not tip 20% on the entire price of your hair service? Who cares if a good portion of it is materials?

You tip waiters based on the cost of the meal - if you order the caviar that is a much larger tip even if they only brought out one plate.

If you can spend a small fortune on stuff like hair extensions there is no need to start getting stingy when it comes to tipping the person who is putting them in for you.

@meupatdoes thank you!

[trubandloki]

@Miss_Motivation

4 Sell the business/property and let the three choices above fall to someone else.

5. Sell the property and have it turn into something not horse related.

[vxf111]

@trubandloki “Selling the property and it turns into something non horse related” is the most likely outcome with land being as valuable as it is right now.

[2bayboys]

And the anger directed at land owners when they do this is so unfair. There are two large horse/farm properties in my area that have recently sold to commercial and residential development and the anger thrown at the owners online has been really unkind. I’m not sure what people expect farm owners to do, go broke so it doesn’t ruin your view?

[Alterration]

@2bayboys

And the anger directed at land owners when they do this is so unfair. There are two large horse/farm properties in my area that have recently sold to commercial and residential development and the anger thrown at the owners online has been really unkind. I’m not sure what people expect farm owners to do, go broke so it doesn’t ruin your view?

Yep.

That’s exactly what they expect. Plus they expect it to not smell like manure, be perfectly maintained, and the animals to never make a peep or disrupt their lives. The amount of pressure that farmers, just like stables, are under when residential neighborhoods sprawl is brutal.

Oh, and in the case of horses, they also want it to be perfectly fine for them to reach over your fences and give carrots whenever they please.

[clanter]

@vxf111

“Selling the property and it turns into something non horse related” is the most likely outcome with land being as valuable as it is right now.

this has been an ongoing issue, my father in law sold the seven acre pasture he had bought in what was then far north Dallas (just north of LBJ) to keep my wife’s horse on for $4.50 a square foot in 1979 … the buyer packaged some adjoining lots into a package selling that package at $10 sq/ft in 1981… a few zillion apartments are there now

[StormyDay]

I’ve been a barn manager, a barn owner with boarders, a boarder, and had my horses at home.

And I’m super concerned about the future of horse boarding.

In my area, up until 2 years ago, it actually was possible to make a living off of boarding horses. I live in the sweet spot of it being warm enough that was get a lot of grass with little effort, but also cold enough that the grass is nutritious. Just speaking from experience, barns charging $700 a month with 25 horses could budget as follows: approximately 5k labor expenses, 4k equine expenses (feed, shavings, etc), 3k other expenses (arena repair, electric, etc). If you had no mortgage, which a lot of these barns didn’t, the leftover amount was a reasonable about of money for someone who was essentially working part time (in this instance, the BO only took care of any administrative work. All outside work was done by the employees).

I knew of multiple barns that were profitable at $600-750 a month for full board. But I just don’t think it’s possible anymore. I’m not even sure it’s possible at $1200 a month.

A lot of those properties were purchased decades ago, back when land was cheaper because the suburbs hadn’t crept in so far yet. So mortgages were either low or none. It made sense to have 20 horses on 20 acres, because the cost of land was cheap enough that you didn’t need to sardine can the horses in. But when the pandemic hit, we had a double whammy; both the prices of those farms skyrocketing ($700k farms became 1.9mil farms) and the need for older owners to get out of the business.
Luckily, at least in my county, we have minimum acreage requirements. So those farms couldn’t be turned into condos. But I’m not sure how long that will last **. So, those farms turned from $700 a month boarding barns to $1000-$1200 a month boarding barns, and they needed to pack more horses onto the same size of property. It was hard on a lot of people. I have a neighbor who does field board for $350 who went from usually having 2-3 open spots to having a wait list.
Now with the cost of feed, hay, etc going up, I’m sure all of the barns will need to increase board again.

On top of the increasing costs in goods and pressure from land developers, it’s now not possible to find people to work unless you are paying $20 minimum an hour. Even at $20 an hour it can be hard to hold onto help. I have a friend who mucks stalls down in FL who is charging $35 an hour; and she’s booked solid, because the barn owners can’t find anyone else. If your farm offers other perks for working for them, then maybe you can offer less (housing) but many barns don’t have that option.

The only small saving grace we have right now is interest rates are rising again. This may result in less pressure from property developers and such in buying up horse properties, because they are expecting a downturn in the market. But we will see.

** it’s supposed to be a 10 acre minimum with a 5 acre exemption in some cases. Well, they are planning on putting in multi million dollar homes on 3 acre lots not far from my house. Obviously some hands were greased to get that deal in.

I have seen some barns turn to other forms of boarding to help with costs.

• In my area there’s quite a few barns that rent out blocks of stalls to trainers. The BO takes care of farm maintenance but the trainer is in charge of any horse care, and charging whatever they’d like to their clients for board. It seems to work ok.
• Whole barn rentals are always in demand. I am currently doing this. I pay for the entire facility, but I also am in charge of all maintenance.
• Co-op boarding. Basically the boarders are all expected to do some farm work. Usually mucking stalls and feeding. I don’t love this because there’s a lot of possibilities for something getting messed up, but it certainly cuts down on labor costs.

I think that for those who can’t move to lower cost areas and also can’t afford to pay $1200-$1500 a month for board, half leasing will become a much more effective way to ‘own’ a horse. I’d not be surprised if in the next few years the demand for half leasing skyrockets.

[kirbydog]

[quote=“StormyDay, post:600, topic:770504”]. So, those farms turned from $700 a month boarding barns to $1000-$1200 a month boarding barns, and they needed to pack more horses onto the same size of property. It was hard on a lot of people. I have a neighbor who does field board for $350 who went from usually having 2-3 open spots to having a wait list.
[/quote]
The paradox of this is that adding more horses does not necessarily create more profit. Unless ALL those horses are using extra services and paying board + extras, more horses can actually drain more money out; more feed/hay/bedding/labor. Harder on the grounds, more where and tear on the buildings, paddocks, pastures, footing, etc. You would be better off with no boarders then. Your semi load of shaving would last longer, your hay would last longer less wear on the facility

@StormyDay

On top of the increasing costs in goods and pressure from land developers, it’s now not possible to find people to work unless you are paying $20 minimum an hour. Even at $20 an hour it can be hard to hold onto help. I have a friend who mucks stalls down in FL who is charging $35 an hour; and she’s booked solid, because the barn owners can’t find anyone else. If your farm offers other perks for working for them, then maybe you can offer less (housing) but many barns don’t have that option.

Skilled labor in our field is becoming harder to find. And if you do find it, they want (justifiably) to be paid a living wage. But first you have to find someone. And it can’t just be a person who loves horses. For insurance and pure safety reasons, we need people with some experience around horses

[StormyDay]

@kirbydog

[quote=“StormyDay, post:600, topic:770504”]. So, those farms turned from $700 a month boarding barns to $1000-$1200 a month boarding barns, and they needed to pack more horses onto the same size of property. It was hard on a lot of people. I have a neighbor who does field board for $350 who went from usually having 2-3 open spots to having a wait list.

The paradox of this is that adding more horses does not necessarily create more profit. Unless ALL those horses are using extra services and paying board + extras, more horses can actually drain more money out; more feed/hay/bedding/labor. Harder on the grounds, more where and tear on the buildings, paddocks, pastures, footing, etc. You would be better off with no boarders then. Your semi load of shaving would last longer, your hay would last longer less wear on the facility

@StormyDay

On top of the increasing costs in goods and pressure from land developers, it’s now not possible to find people to work unless you are paying $20 minimum an hour. Even at $20 an hour it can be hard to hold onto help. I have a friend who mucks stalls down in FL who is charging $35 an hour; and she’s booked solid, because the barn owners can’t find anyone else. If your farm offers other perks for working for them, then maybe you can offer less (housing) but many barns don’t have that option.

Skilled labor in our field is becoming harder to find. And if you do find it, they want (justifiably) to be paid a living wage. But first you have to find someone. And it can’t just be a person who loves horses. For insurance and pure safety reasons, we need people with some experience around horses
[/quote]

Yes, overall more horses= more wear and that means more money. 5 or 10 extra horses (I’m speaking more of the barns that run boarding for profit only, not ones where the owners have horses and kind of ‘subsidize’ their own horses with board fees) doesn’t seem like a lot, but it’s 10 more trips a day in the arena, 10 more horses being bathed, 10 more horses wearing the grass down. But, at least up until now, it made sense to pack the horses in because you could get a round bale for $50 and bales of hay for $5, so if you lost grass it wasn’t the end of the world. But now? Well, the cost of hay is probably going to double.

In my area, if you have the land, you can totally get away with feeding hay only from the end of November to the end of March. That’s a lot of savings if you have the land to do so. But if you have to pack extra horses on the land, you certainly won’t have the grass. I’m already seeing that in some of the lower end barns in my area that are trying to put 6-7 horses on 5 acres with no hay.

It used to be pretty common to pick up a few immigrant workers who would be thrilled to work for $8-10 an hour. It was not living wages; most of them were either sharing 4 people to a room and sending money home or living onsite. Well, now most of the immigrant workers can get much better working conditions and much better pay elsewhere. You don’t have nearly as much risk working at Chick-fil-A or McDonald’s as you do working around horses. So on the whole, the horse industry needs to raise its rates for hourly employees, but many barn owners are still stuck back in 2012 when $10 was a good wage for a barn worker. Until the rates are higher than the average minimum wage in our area, it’s almost impossible to get help. (In my area, Taco Bell is paying $18 an hour. I would expect that the minimum pay needed for a barn worker would be around $23-25 an hour.)

I could go on, but I think the main problem that this all comes down to is that the average barn has not kept up with inflation. $700 in 2008 and $700 in 2020 got you almost the same facility. That’s not normal. Barn owners have been slowly absorbing the inflation costs without passing them along. Now that everything is going up (gas, hay, feed, human food) the barn owners have to increase rates and that’s going to be a shock to a lot of people, OP included.

Realistically, a lot of barns in the USA need to raise their rates by about $100-$200 a month. Some may need to raise them by as much as $400-500. There’s a barn near me that is still $600 a month with an indoor. I don’t even know how she keeps afloat with that.

[clanter]

@StormyDay

but I think the main problem that this all comes down to is that the average barn has not kept up with inflation. $700 in 2008 and $700 in 2020 got you almost the same facility.

2008 to 2019 inflation was minor ( 1 to 2%/yr) and at times negative (2009) but since the in 2021 government printed about $10T inflation has become a problem

Current US Inflation Rates: 2000-2022 | US Inflation Calculator

[hey101]

I’ve contributed a few times to this thread and not going to reiterate any of that…
But on Wed eve I was notified by my hay guy that bales were going from $23per a MONTH ago to $28/bale for next order. That is within ONE month.
I got on the horn yesterday morning and found a place still at last month pricing and ordered as much as my barn would hold. A big hit all at once to the bank account but hedging against future pricing.
I feel terrible for abandoning my hay guy of four years and it’s not his fault- he’s passing on the costs he is now absorbing. I texted him to let him know the local place I found and he not only wasn’t salty about it, he told me to buy as much as I could because the prices are not coming down any time soon.
There is no way barn owners can absorb that kind of immediate price increase without passing on to clients with no notice.
Or, BO can implement a large increase now (100? $200?) to hedge against future price increases on hay bedding labor utilities…

ETA- BTW the same hay a year ago was $18/bale…

[Old_Mac_Donald]

How big are your hale bales? Just trying to get some context for myself. Ours are 3’x4’ (I know, we still use feet!) and 100-120kg. The price on one farm went up $5/bale, two others so far have not ($35, $37)

[hey101]

About 100-110lbs, what I call medium squares. When I lived on east coast I had what I called small squares 50-60lbs and sounds like you have what I call large squares. Do you know the avg weight of your bales? I did the math upstream and don’t feel Ike doing it again on a fri aftn but one of my bales lasts an individual average sized horse about 4 days