Questions about extensively inbred QH lines: Hancock

[J-Lu]

Hello all,

I have a question about extensively in bred QH lines.

I know a very inbred Hancock horse, whose sire is the damsire. The sire can be found all over the sire’s side, as well as the dam sires side but not the dam’s dam line. She is freakishly inbred to another sire.

Is this common amongst QHs? No WB breeder would use this much inbreeding. Of note, I LOVE this Hancock horse, who has a WB build but is pretty hot and reactionary. I would love to have this horse which is why I’m asking about this kind of inbreeding.

Thanks!

[furlong47]

I don’t know if I would say it’s common but I’ve certainly seen it in QH. Most often a horse bred back to his own offspring or two horses with the same sire bred to each other. There’s a fairly well known local stallion in my area who was once bred to his own dam, and then bred again to the resulting daughter. (As well as both of those things separately a few other times.)

[Luseride]

It is not common but it happens. In my experience much more common in Arabians and TWH. I personally would look closely at the horse and health as there are some problems naturally with line breeding.

[Foxglove]

There is a Facebook group called “Hancocks and Blue Valentines” where this occasionally comes up and is discussed. I own a Hancock gelding --great horse. However, I would hesitate to buy ANY horse that is overly inbred (or any critter at all). There has been some discussion lately on the Facebook group about ringbone showing up in very young (5-6-7 year old) Hancocks who are heavily inbred. Of course, no research, all antidotal.

My other concern would be “hot and reactionary” – from what I’ve seen of Hancock horses, they are as a group, in my experience, more on the stoic, unflappable side. I can only speak from my own observation of 5-6 Hancock horses I have seen personally --mares and geldings. As a group, while none were “hot and reactionary.” The geldings I’ve met have been like mine, hard working, slow to learn new things, but once they learn them, never forget. My horse is unaffectionate, even contemptable of humans --but he will do his job perfectly --I’ve had him almost 20 years. He has never nickered to me, or sought affection --prefers other horses to me --but carried me 250 miles on a ride across MI and never missed a step --maybe he’s still mad about that. He is still my go-to horse in any new or difficult situation. On the hunt field, he’s the horse that is asked to pony or ride beside any fractious youngster (human or horse). He jumps like a deer --and falls asleep at checks. The Hancock mares I’ve met are hugely loyal to their owners, and occasionally are jealous and over protective (chase other horses away from owner). I’ve been told they have more “bottom” than any gelding ever (don’t know, don’t own mares).

I would own a Hancock in a minute --but not overly inbred or “hot and reactive.” I actually do have a second Hancock sort of --he has a Hancock a few generations back --but gave him the curly hair and roan color --but he’s heavily Freckles Playboy and Poco Leibra (I think that’s where the Hancock comes from).

[J-Lu]

@Foxglove, This horse was purchased by a good trainer from an auction in the midwest, maybe west. He was still a stallion at I want to say 4-5 years old and who knows what his background is like. That may contribute to his hotness and reactivity level. He’s a gelding now coming 8 and kind of wants to interact with people but doesn’t seem like he trusts them. I mean, I can walk up to him and put my hand out for sniffing and he’ll interact with me, let me touch his face and respond. He’s now good with petting on his body- he wasn’t before (he would get so nervous). The trainer has brought him a long way. He was a SUPER tense guy when the trainer first restarted him but he’s since gotten much better and has even gone to work cows on a working beef ranch.

I did hear from a long time QH breeder who comes down for training sometimes that Hancocks can be hot. She has seen this horse go in person. I posted this same question to her on Facebook messenger the other night. He can sit and basically do little canter pirouettes when changing direction. He is SO underneath himself!

It’s been fun watching him progress and I love him for his build, way of going and spark. I really don’t need another reactionary horse and don’t plan to buy him but I just love him. I saw his papers and I thought Holy Inbreeding!

It seems the original Hancock was a mare with that name who only seemed to be bred to Joe Hancock? The power of the mare!

Thanks for your feedback so far, everyone!

[J-Lu]

@furlong47

I don’t know if I would say it’s common but I’ve certainly seen it in QH. Most often a horse bred back to his own offspring or two horses with the same sire bred to each other. There’s a fairly well known local stallion in my area who was once bred to his own dam, and then bred again to the resulting daughter. (As well as both of those things separately a few other times.)

Now THAT is asking for “concentration” of spontaneous detrimental mutations. I work with mice IRL for research and I even I wouldn’t allow that kind of breeding for mice even though they are essentially clones of each other. Random genetic mutations and crossover events just happen during reproduction, and to breed carrier to carrier is a recipe for disaster. I’ve seen this happen in overly inbred mouse lines and it happens in horse breeding, HYPP, FFS, etc.

ETA: My friend the QH breeder says that her personal opinion of Hancock line horses is that they can be very difficult and very hard headed. Once you can get through to them, they can be the best. But opinions are all over the place. She said breeders tend to go with the type of horse that fits them but she has not seen a Hancock horse she’d like in her barn because she’s going more on reputation than experience.

[endlessclimb]

Given the troubles with your last horse (current horse?) I’m quite surprised you would go for this type.

As the saying goes its a lot easier to jazz up a chill one than to calm a hot/over reactive/anxious one.

An 8 year old nervous to be touched, with unknown history? Hard pass.

[J-Lu]

As I mentioned, I’m not about go go for this horse. But I see him regularly and have loved his movement and build from day one. I mentioned what I love about him, please read the posts more carefully. He has come so far.

This thread is about the extensive line breeding/inbreeding.

Thanks!

[BlueDrifter]

I have an in-bred/line bred Hancock, and in order to get a blue roan, you will see concentrated “line-breeding.”

I will second the “unaffectionate, dependable, gets the job done, no-nonsense, not spooky, calm” description. I bought him from a flipper as a 12 yo – and every month that first year I thought of moving him on. He nipped, pulled back, ear-shy, reared, balky, and was big and strong. But I am persistent, and put him in training programs to get more consistency than I could offer. I ignored the bad stuff and it disappeared. Three years later, I have a horse that I wouldn’t give up. He now nickers for me, takes any bit, any saddle, can be turned out alone, etc. Still not a pocket horse, but I actually look for a second hancock to own.

I would not recommend Hancocks for most, unless not inbred and fairly back on the pedigree.

[MsM]

Many years ago a QH trainer acquaintance was talking about another trainer who had just lost his job at a big QH farm. That trainer had been successful for a number of years, but hadnt had much success recently. He chuckled and said, “Hancock horses!” When I asked what he meant he said that the trainer had his success with horses of a line known to be laid back and willing to please (I cant remember what line!) but the owners had purchased a number of Hancock bred horses recently. He said the trainer had used some rushed and strong-arm tactics that intimidated the first group into behaving. But, he said, Hancocks would not accept unfairness and force and this trainer had no other tools.

[Djones]

Chuckled at the long ride comment

[TheHunterKid90]

Yes, it is more common than not.
By “line breeding” you are trying to breed more of the traits you like on a certain bloodline onto a potential foal. The problem lies in that people forget that you’re multiplying all the negative traits as well (in theory.)
Some families that have been produced by line breeding have been out of this world……example is that Peptoboonsmal crossed best on daughters of Smart Little Lena, those sons were than bred to daughters of Smart Little Lena (or Smart Chic O’Lena) and have produced unbelievable horses. With that in mind you also can get a hot horse that can be overreactive.
Fortunately the son of Pepto we have is super lazy and good minded so it was a great cross that are easy enough for an amateur back to Smart Little Lena mares.

[J-Lu]

Thanks! My friend’s former QH had Peptoboonsmal in the pedigree at least twice. I don’t have access to her papers anymore.

I think I’m less concerned about hot horses with inbreeding as opposed to genetic behavioural and/or physical problems. You can fix non-genetic behavioural issues…

[LilRanger]

I rode a Hancock bred gelding as a junior in hunter classes. He was very reactive and nervous until he trusted me, then it was like, “you wanna do that? You sure? Cause if you’re sure, we’re gonna do it, even if it’s a terrible idea!”

He was not a talented jumper, but by God he never, ever stopped at a fence.

[4horses]

I once used to breed fancy gerbils. Gerbils are fun because they come in so many colors and you can get all different shades. My first line of gerbils all died of cancer at relatively young ages. Bought new gerbils and started an unrelated line. None of this new line developed cancer. The only time I had a gerbil from this line develop cancer was when I deliberately inbred my gerbils in order to get pink eyed white offspring.

Unfortunately I became more and more allergic to the point I couldn’t go in the room with them.

As for horses, with the prevalence of genetic disorders like DSLD and Pssm, I don’t find inbreeding to be desirable. I wouldn’t deliberately set out to buy an inbred horse. Maybe if that horse was phenomenal under saddle and I really enjoyed riding it, I might take the gamble. I’m actually afraid to buy anything with quarter horse or paint bloodlines - the last 2 paints I had both had Pssm. One was type 1 and the other type 2. If I did buy another horse, it wouldn’t be without a trial period and I would very sporadically go on long rides just to see if the horse seems prone to tying up.

If you are really interested in that particular horse, maybe pull some x rays and see if you can ride him a couple times before buying. My main concern is that the inbreeding would cause whatever diseases he might be carrying to show themselves at a younger age (potentially reducing lifespan or causing an early retirement).

[J-Lu]

Thank you, @4horses.

I don’t plan to buy this horse, I admire him. What a crazy uphill build and way of going. Knowing the level of inbreeding and talking with a very trusted QH breeder, this horse may do best with the professional who is currently riding him. She considers this pedigree to be rather hot and potentially problematic, and she’s met the horse in person and knows the trainer. She’s not a fan of this many Hancock’s so prevalent in the pedigree. I’ve seen many of what she breeds and honestly, if I were to buy a QH, I’d buy one of hers. Her sister owns one who actively fox hunts.

This horse is hot. A great mover but not someone I’d want to sit on and train in the near future. He’s settling because he’s ridden and owned by a professional trainer. He just got such great QH movement that I think he could do dressage quite well. Who knows if he could mentally hold up to that type of training. For his part, he’s never bucked, reared or showed any immediate dangerous behavior under saddle. He’s amplified his discomfort well initially when being tacked up (bucked o plenty) and initially ridden (stiff as a board). He’s taking to “being told what to do” which I think was lacking in his previous life and obviously trust was seriously lacking. He has a good home and an good trainer now and he’s turning around. He can be spooky and reactive like my current horse, and that I can deal with. Do I want to ride another? No.

But still, I love to watch this horse go and love his build for a QH. I was interested in QH peeps to say whether this level of inbreeding was currently “a thing” or not. There’s great feedback. As a dressage rider, I don’t consider many QHs because they aren’t built for the sport and don’t have the mind for the sport. But this guy… This guy…

[fordtraktor]

It isn’t common, IMO. I have seen it more with gaited horses to cement the natural gait in. In fact, I had one for a few months as a resale.

That horse passed a PPE with flying colors, not a single concern, and is the sweetest boy. His new owner adores him (she is on my FB).

But it isn’t something I would ever choose to do myself. Just ask not something I would worry about in a gelding already on the ground that passes a PPE well.

[TheHunterKid90]

Luckily the 6 panel test can rule out most genetic diseases although being a carrier of a recessive disease means nothing as long as you don’t breed them.