Questions about nosebands, horse opening mouth, tight reins, & contact

[Just1Alter]

I am typing this as an alter because I’m not quite sure what kind of responses I may get and I don’t want to feel as though I have to defend myself. I have three questions in this post since they are kind of related to each other. I’ll bold the questions for easier reading.

I’m sure this is a sensitive topic, so I am going to start this off by saying I am not attempting to bash other riders but truly want to understand and learn. I’ve asked my trainer some of these questions but I would like to hear from others since everyone has different points of view.

Lately, I have been paying close attention to the pictures of dressage horses on social media and noticed a few things. These pictures are of upper level horses and BNT. I am not at the level so I am still learning.

Question #1
One thing that I have noticed is that there are several pictures posted by BNT with their horse’s mouth open. I have always been told that an open mouth is not good, but then this seems to occur more often than I expected, so I was thinking maybe there is more to this than I was originally taught (ie: maybe sometimes an open mouth does equal pain or a horse evading the bit, but sometimes it could mean something else).

Then, I saw a video of Alizee Froment on Facebook riding a horse bridleless. I noticed that during a few steps her horse opens his mouth. So that really peaked my interest and made me think, maybe the horse opens their mouth not because of the bit or bridle, but because this is some sort of instinctive reaction to using their back or hindend more, maybe? I haven’t figured out this answer so I was hoping maybe someone else could help me understand why many upper level horses are opening their mouth. Is it because of pain (but why would so many of these well known horses and trainers be in pain?) or is because it is a horse reacts (but reacts to what?), or is it some other reason that I have never thought of?

Question #2
Yesterday, I saw a picture that stated how loose a noseband should be. It looks like the cartoon character’s hand has two fingers up and down. So, when you are checking the looseness of your bridle with your left hand, your index finger would be on top of your middle finger (index finger would touch the noseband and middle finger would touch the horse’s nose). Is that correct? I also heard that it measured with your two fingers laying flat against the horse’s nose (so one finger height, two fingers width). But that never made sense to me.

Question #3 & 4
I also noticed that different riders seem to have different “rein tension” (not quite sure how to explain it in words). Some riders have a slight loop in the reins, others have a loop in the curb rein, and some have a very straight line with both snaffle and curb rein.

I am still learning so I know I have to slowly put the pieces together.
I know that a rider should be able to use their seat and not depend on the reins and that the horse should be seeking contact into the bit. So, what is the ultiamte purpose of the rein at the upper levels? If the horse is well schooled, understands seat aids, why do they have to seek the bit? Why do some riders have what looks like less “rein pressure” than others?

Again, I really am hoping others can provide insightful information that will provide new information from your own personal experiences, and not start a bashing war.
I am not looking to disect my horse’s problems, I just want to know more so I can have it as new knowledge for the present and future.

[piedmontfields]

I will offer you a few notes for reflection, as an enthusiastic amateur student of dressage.

Q1: We can think of the tongue as the last muscle of the spine (topline). So, activity in the mouth, including opening the mouth, can simply be a sign that the horse is not completely through at that moment. Many horses often hold tension in their mouth; others develop mouth habits under saddle or just on their downtime. Even with very solid training, it can be a challenge to eliminate signs of these habits under saddle.

Q2: I was taught to stack the fingers to check looseness. It is true that many people do not ride with a noseband this loose, but it is also true that tightening a nose band does not cause the mouth to be quiet or the horse to be through!

Q3: I’d like to defer on this question, as it sounds like you are questioning the purpose of reins, period, on a trained horse, i.e. “why do they have to seek the bit.” As you noticed in Froment’s video, there can be a sense of the horse seeking the bit (releasing the entire topline to the tongue) even when riding without a bride.

[Scribbler]

Photos can be a moment in time, and horses do play with the bit even ridden on light contact. So you really want to see a video before you make a final decision on anyone’s riding.

That said, I think you already know the answer. There is a wide range of practice in dressage. Some folks ride in clear contact with minimal weight on the reins, some folks do Rolkur, some folks know how to get a horse engaged and lifting the back, some folks put their entire body weight on the reins to force a headset. Some folks use a tight crank and flash to keep the mouth closed either because their hands are heavy or the horse fusses. Others use exactly the same gear because they see everyone else using in and think it’s fashionable (like a standing martingale in hunters).

And some folks ride on a loose or draped rein, though probably not in competition.

If certain riders start to hurt your eyes, stop watching them. If an entire discipline starts to hurt your eyes (like Western Pleasure or Saddle seat) stop watching it. Some folks grow to feel this way about watching dressage competition.

The purpose of the bit at all levels is to communicate and as your horse gets better trained the bit becomes more about balancing and flexing, and not about change of direction or slowing down.

The horse seeking contact with the bit is a delicate but crucial part of dressage. Some horses love to stretch over the topline naturally and do it at liberty, others like to go high and above contact; training involves getting the horse better at what he doesn’t naturally do.

Yes, you can ride a trained horse bitless anywhere or without a bridle in a safe enclosure. You will be able to get the horse to do much or even all it does with a bit. It makes a pretty picture and a nice demo.

But you cannot get a horse trained to a high level of dressage without a bit and you probably cannot keep the horse fully tuned up riding bitless.

So that’s why these demonstrations are essentially “trick” riding, in that they trick the audience into thinking this is how the horse was trained from scratch.

Now I love riding with a sidepull and messing around with no hands in a safe arena. But we are not advancing our dressage specific work at those times.

[Tigre_Horse]

Scribbler I wish I could “love” your post! I had to settle for liking it - I think you answered the OP perfectly!

[soloudinhere]

The seeking of the bit is a necessary part of the “circle of energy” that comes with throughness. If there were no connection/contact, the energy could not be cycled from the front end through the connection back to the hind end. The reins aren’t there to be a steering wheel or anything else at that point - they’re the completion of the circle with the horse’s hind end pushing over a lifted back and front end, into the rider’s hand to complete the forward motion.

Similarly, one of the many facets of dressage is acceptance by the horse - of the bit, of the contact, of the rider’s direction. Without the rein, you don’t really have these things. Photographs show a moment in time and slack or tension in the reins may just be a factor of where the horse’s head versus the rider’s hand was at that exact moment. Some horses go better with more or less on one rein (either snaffle or curb) it’s very individual.

[JenEM]

On question #2, when I’ve been tack checker at shows, and per the USE guidelines (page 8/9 here: https://files.usef.org/assets/VqIPYDBJxJA/2016dressageattireequipmentbooklet.pdf ), it’s been two fingers side by side.

On rein length, I would assume that especially what one sees in a still photo would vary greatly depending on what the reins are being used for at that moment in time, and where the horse’s head is relative to the rider’s hands. You might not need much curb during a lengthening, for example, and so let it develop a bit of a loop, but pick it back up for the transition to a more collected movement.

[emipou]

These are all great questions, and a great topic in general.

@Scribbler

Yes, you can ride a trained horse bitless anywhere or without a bridle in a safe enclosure. You will be able to get the horse to do much or even all it does with a bit. It makes a pretty picture and a nice demo.

I just want to add, since OP mentioned Alizee Fremont, that even Alizee uses a bit to get her horses where they are. I love that she combines upper level dressage with liberty work. She has a beautiful connection. But she also competes and she does use a bit.

[CHT]

I disagree that you can’t “Dressage” bitless. Some horses are easier to ride bitless as they have learned worry about the bit, and when they worry they tense their tongue/jaw, which results in tension down their entire back. Riding without a big can eliminate that tension. However, showing requires the bit, so you can’t do competitive dressage without a bit.

When judging, I often see horses with mouths braced open against the noseband. Rarely do I see this with professionals though…usually with people that are over horsed and using the reins for balance OR on a tense horse. I don’t mind a mildly open mouth, but when that mouth is braced open, you can see the tension through the neck and to the hind legs, and that is when I will comment and lower the score.

A loopy rein and vs the rider just holding the weight of the rein is going to feel the same for the horse. A horse that is tensely curled up and behind the contact might have a loose rein and so look to be in “self carriage”, but this is definitely not better than a horse that has some weight on the reins with a relaxed back. With the curb, the more the horse is on the vertical, the more slack there will likely be.

[Snowdenfarm]

Love, love seeing this topic discussed on here – and so civilly.

[Scribbler]

I dunno about bitless.

I can get my mare to do about 85% of what she already knows, in a side pull. Sometimes she will stretch into contact and sometimes I can get a bit of collection by sitting in and raising my hands.

But I don’t feel like you can ride on contact in a side pull because what are you in contact with?

It is very good practice in riding off seat and leg cues. It’s useful. It’s a nice break for the horse.

But the number one thing my horse needs reinforced forever is stretching into contact and keeping it, not stretching and then popping up a fraction of an inch so she is just above the bit. I don’t know if you can teach this in a sidepull.

Hmmm perhaps I should try.

You absolutely can’t ride on contact in a mechanical hackamore.