Questions about showing dogs

[shakeytails]

I’ve often thought showing dogs would be kinda fun. If I didn’t have a farm and show horses that suck all of my money and time, I might consider it. Anyway…

What does it cost to have a professional train and handle a show dog? Does the dog go the the handler as a pup? What is the cost to finish a dog? Do you pay per month? per show? Both?

How hard is it to DIY? I’ve been showing horses most of my life, and I can respectably put a horse in the ring and be competitive with minimal help. The training, the grooming, the tack and attire all seem fairly easy to me, but when you’ve done it for decades it becomes second nature.

Are show dogs ever sold like show horses? Like buying a champion BTDT dog to continue showing with an amateur owner handler? Or is that just not done?

I’ve heard dog show people can be evil to each each other. Really evil, especially if you win. Truth or not?

[goodhors]

Lots and lots of politics in breeds and breed shows. To show your own dogs, you have to get known, to be placed. If you want ribbons, titles, you probably want to place your dog with a Professional who is already known and will be able to win if dog is “good enough”.

We played back when we started with a new breed. I did alright with her in Puppy level, but was always last in the class against older dogs because I was “unknown”. Husband on the sidelines heard the comments, good on the dog, “But who is that handling it?” We got ribbons by default, 2-3 in the class, so they had one to give me for my entry fee.

Talking to the Pros, they did not see any problem with our dog getting her CH quite fast, she looked and moved very well, quite what the Judges wanted to win. However, I was not really willing to send dog off for “a while” to win ribbons, she would grow away from US, her family. I didn’t get the dog to pay for it to live elsewhere, even with ribbons for my reward. We were not planning to get into the breeding business, so any winnings were kind of just icing on the cake of enjoying the dog.

In the end, we kept dog at home, enjoyed her ourselves and didn’t do any more formal showing. Horses have always come first here, dog was for fun. She is a great dog, always gets compliments, wonderful to take places with us.

Dog showing for titles, points, is not for me, not fun and not often friendly within the breed you own. DD did well with the dog in Showmanship classes, won a lot there. But kids doing Showmanship is lots different than the Breed Classes.

[ElisLove]

I will hopefully be getting my first show dog this summer and will be completely unknown in a breed that is virtually always shown with a handler ( I will be handling my dog) so will let you know! (though it will be like 8 months from now!)

[S1969]

My first answer is:

Unfortunately, it depends on the breed. In my breed - Brittany - it’s entirely possible to finish a dog by yourself, and if you have a good dog (like I do) you can rank nationally if you try. (This assumes you learn to become a decent handler - but it’s not impossible if you are willing to work at it.) I have shown my dog exclusively and he is a Bronze Grand Champion; and I would be able to rank him nationally if I wanted to show that much (currently we are in the Top 20 but not sure I can keep him there all year because it takes time).

Of course grooming makes a big difference. Your chances of handling an Old English Sheepdog or a Standard Poodle to a Ch. will depend a lot on your grooming, but my breed, or many other sporting breeds are not as difficult and/or may not have any grooming needs. I am incredibly lucky that my dog’s breeder is also a top groomer and lives 20 minutes from me. I’m not sure we’d be as successful if I didn’t have her help. Actually, I’m sure we wouldn’t.

There are a lot of different ways you could pay a handler - and the charges would differ. You can do “ringside handling” where you bring the dog to the show, the handler goes in the ring, and you take the dog home. In my area that is about $100-$120 (maybe somewhat less depending on the handler) + grooming. Some pros don’t love this because they might want to do training, or think the dog would do better if it stayed with them and developed a relationship. And then of course, they could probably show the dog more – e.g. if you drop it off for a month, they might be able to enter up to 12-16 shows or more.

Top handlers are hugely expensive, and having a top handler show your dog to Best in Shows might run up to $100K/year or more. But that’s a totally different level of competition compared to non-champions seeking points. Even in my breed, the level of preparation/grooming/training changes between non-champion and champion level competition.

As for buying finished dogs; it does happen but not as frequently, at least in my breed. Putting the title on the dog is usually a step toward breeding it. If the owner no longer wants the dog, it usually means it’s not great for their breeding purpose. I know of a few dogs that were rehomed and are back out and showing - but I think this is less common than replacing a dog as a pet.

Hope this helps. What area of the country do you live in? I’m in the Northeast – lots of show opportunities here.

[S1969]

Oh - PS. Yes, there are politics, yes there are nasty people. Evil? I have not encountered that so far.

I have met many truly nice people along the way. And I’ve found that people that show in conformation in addition to other venues (hunting, obedience, rally, agility) tend to be more easy going because, I presume, their success in the show ring is not their only outlet for enjoyment.

There are more losers than winners in every show, so not surprisingly there are some sour grapes. I find it pretty easy to avoid the drama; and my dog has done a lot of winning locally. Be nice to others; don’t badmouth their dogs; lend a helping hand, even to your competition. Be happy for others when they win.

[PAF]

Hi Shakeytails,
Showing dogs can be lots of fun and/or lots of frustration and there are many steps to take.

First and foremost, please understand that your good breeders are breeding to improve their breed. You are not going to get a show quality pup from just someone breeding. You need to do some research (start at the national breed organization and find breeders in your area) - get to know the breeders around you, find one that you mesh well with and let them know you are interested in showing and are looking for a mentor along with a puppy. Go to lots of dog shows in your area and watch for people in your breed that have dogs you admire and watch how they conduct themselves.

A mentor will take you into their “program” and teach you the ropes. Many of these relationships become life-long. They will place a puppy with you that they believe is appropriate to your level and work with you on raising and showing them.

They will more than likely suggest you take handling classes to teach you how to properly show your dog.

As previously mentioned, professional handlers have different ways of charging. Many breeders are very good with showing and you might be able to work with the breeder to show your dog. Some people purchase the puppy and leave it with the breeder to show through Championship/Grand Championship.

Some breeds are more difficult to finish than others. Some pretty much require a pro handler because there are so many of that breed showing. There is no hard and fast rule.

So the short of it is get to know your breeders, find one you like and could “live” with for the lifetime of the dog and determine what you would like to do. There are other ways to show as well - there are performance titles (tracking, agility) and fun stuff like nose work.

Have fun!

[My_Two_Cents]

I think you can show a “mutt” in obedience and rally classes. They don’t have to be an AKC breed. Go get training that is actually for the handler to learn how to train the dog instead of sending the dog to a trainer. Dogs are smart and can tell if you don’t know what you’re doing. Check out a few shows. I’ve heard more bad comments at shows than good ones from people criticizing other peoples dogs. Find some nice people to hang out with and ignore the negativity and spread a pleasant upside to dog showing. Most of all have fun.

[trubandloki]

[QUOTE=My Two Cents;8612075]
I think you can show a “mutt” in obedience and rally classes. They don’t have to be an AKC breed. [/QUOTE]
There are two ways to do register a “mutt” with the AKC to do obedience, rally and agility. For starters the mutt has to be spayed or neutered. You can then simply admit it is a dog that is a true mixed breed and register it as an All American (aka Mutt). This might limit your ability to enter some shows though. Some shows do not allow All American dogs to enter.
There is also the PAL program for dogs that are a breed, or look like a breed, but have no papers.

@My Two Cents;8612075

I’ve heard more bad comments at shows than good ones from people criticizing other peoples dogs. Find some nice people to hang out with and ignore the negativity and spread a pleasant upside to dog showing. Most of all have fun.

I think dog shows are just like horse shows. There are some rail birds who are all negative and there are some rail birds who are all positive.

[GraceLikeRain]

I think the average owner spends mid 4 figures up to low 5 figures for finishing a dog based off of the conversations I’ve had. In these situations the dog lived with a handler until they met the desired goal or level.

Top dogs in my breed run upper five figures for year-round campaigning chasing points for top 10 (all breed system). Several owner-handlers manage top 10 within our breed point system.

I owner-handled my dog to his CH, GCH, and #1 OHS. However, his breeder was my mentor and was beyond generous with her time, expertise, and support. My breed would be brutal to attempt alone since you have to dealing with stripping a coat and scissor work. I had to work his coat twice a week and relied a lot on her expertise when it came to scissor work and the finer points of coat sculpting.

Show dogs are definitely sold but usually it is as a breeding prospect or after they are neutered/spayed for a junior to handle. However, if you found a good breeder in your chosen breed they may be open to selling you something that has a few points already if they have too many dogs out showing at that time.

Offering to help a breeder show is also a great way to gain ring experience without absorbing the expense of entries or stress of ongoing conditioning and coat care.

From my limited experience I think that tight-coated breeds are the most competitive because you cannot hide any structurally faults. However, dogs with heavy grooming requirements are close behind because poor grooming can create the appearance of faults while expert grooming can disguise them.

If you are open to all breeds I’d consider ones with a heavy owner-handler presence like Brittanys, flat coated retrievers, etc. I am in miniature schnauzers where the vast majority are breeder-handlers who are also professionals. However, the OHS class has greatly increased the number of owner-handlers in the ring.

[D_BaldStockings]

There are also different registries/show venues.

For conformation:
AKC is very pro handler oriented. AKC also has sanctioned ‘matches’ to help people learn the ropes and give the dogs a start. No points, of course.
UKC discourages pro handling.
-of course, people with AKC champions will not be impressed by a UKC champ.

For ‘performance’
AKC and UKC
Obedience, Rally, Agility, Tracking, Field trials, Coursing, Herding, Earthdog…

There are also specific performance events outside of the two major registries:
IPO, Schutzhund, Flyball, Dock Diving, Racing and coursing, etc.
Many are open at some level to all dogs.

most Titled dogs that are not altered and are intended to be bred are sold, IF they are sold, to other experienced breeders within the breed, or on co-ownerships.

[wireweiners]

As others said, it depends on the breed. I showed dachshunds which have a lot of owner handlers. The last dog I finished I used a handler to get her majors. It was actually cheaper than doing it myself by the time I paid my travel expenses. Plus the handler was better at judging which shows were likely to draw majors and which judges would like my bitch.

[Field_of_Dreams_Mini]

[QUOTE=S1969;8611875]
Oh - PS. Yes, there are politics, yes there are nasty people. Evil? I have not encountered that so far.
<<snip>>>.[/QUOTE]

I have. They are out there.

When I was 14 or so I “worked” for a lady who raised Old English Sheepdogs. Big, lovable goofballs. I groomed her house dogs and babysat when they went away, played with puppies and generally had a blast. One weekend when she went to some company function in NYC I was house sitting the dogs. A big Specialty was going up, and her dog Burr was expected to win. He was amazing.

I can home from band camp that day and and was told one of the dogs had been rushed to the hospital! It was Burr- someone had thrown poisoned food over the wall into the run.

He died. i was beside myself. The people were super and didn’t blame me, but I’ve neither forgotten nor really gotten over it. Never been to a dog show since.

[trubandloki]

[QUOTE=Field of Dreams Mini Horses;8612495]
I have. They are out there.

When I was 14 or so I “worked” for a lady who raised Old English Sheepdogs. Big, lovable goofballs. I groomed her house dogs and babysat when they went away, played with puppies and generally had a blast. One weekend when she went to some company function in NYC I was house sitting the dogs. A big Specialty was going up, and her dog Burr was expected to win. He was amazing.

I can home from band camp that day and and was told one of the dogs had been rushed to the hospital! It was Burr- someone had thrown poisoned food over the wall into the run.

He died. i was beside myself. The people were super and didn’t blame me, but I’ve neither forgotten nor really gotten over it. Never been to a dog show since.[/QUOTE]

So the poisoning happened at her home?

[GraceLikeRain]

[QUOTE=Field of Dreams Mini Horses;8612495]
I have. They are out there.

When I was 14 or so I “worked” for a lady who raised Old English Sheepdogs. Big, lovable goofballs. I groomed her house dogs and babysat when they went away, played with puppies and generally had a blast. One weekend when she went to some company function in NYC I was house sitting the dogs. A big Specialty was going up, and her dog Burr was expected to win. He was amazing.

I can home from band camp that day and and was told one of the dogs had been rushed to the hospital! It was Burr- someone had thrown poisoned food over the wall into the run.

He died. i was beside myself. The people were super and didn’t blame me, but I’ve neither forgotten nor really gotten over it. Never been to a dog show since.[/QUOTE]

I’m sorry that happened but it could have just as easily been a disgruntled neighbor sick of barking dogs or a completely unrelated person who lacked morals and wished harm on the dogs. Did someone come forward and admit they did it to ruin the dog’s chances at a specialty?

[Murphy_s_Mom]

Dog show people are batshit crazy. At least in the conformation ring. I got my first taste of it last year. Had one woman grab my dog out of my arms and run clippers up his face to show another woman how good they cut (about 20 minutes before my class), thought another woman was going to punch me because I crossed some invisible line into her space ringside (and this was after I politely told her I would be moving my stuff). She told me not to get snippy with her and was poking her finger in my chest. Have been warned that the crazy clipper lady would try to trip me in the ring and to watch my back.

I find it all amusing. I’m in it to try something new and get a little experience on my dogs before hitting the obedience ring so I don’t care if I win or not. Will be taking my 11 month old to his first show next weekend. If he gaits and stacks nice I’ll be happy. He is showing against two of his cousins, his daddy, and one other. The breeder and I are friends so at least I know there will be one friendly face there.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Murphy’s Mom;8612970]
Dog show people are batshit crazy. At least in the conformation ring. I got my first taste of it last year. Had one woman grab my dog out of my arms and run clippers up his face to show another woman how good they cut (about 20 minutes before my class), thought another woman was going to punch me because I crossed some invisible line into her space ringside (and this was after I politely told her I would be moving my stuff). She told me not to get snippy with her and was poking her finger in my chest. Have been warned that the crazy clipper lady would try to trip me in the ring and to watch my back.[/QUOTE]

I’ve never experienced this kind of thing; but there are some unwritten etiquette rules at shows – don’t cut through people’s setup, don’t unplug their electric, don’t touch their dogs, etc… No way in hell would I let someone I didn’t know touch my dog, let alone actually use clippers on it.

People say that others will “play tricks” on you in the ring, but I’ve never experienced this personally. I’ve heard of a few people that supposedly had blatant issues, but I haven’t seen any.

I think it is more likely that other handlers are showing their dog to the judge and won’t care if they block yours - if you let them. Or they will move their dog at their desired speed, even if they run up on your (slower) dog. Others will say they are trying to “sabotage” you, but it is very likely they are just showing their dog.

[shakeytails]

I was asking out of curiosity more than anything. I know how the horse show world works and was wondering about dogs. I don’t have the time, money or ambition for another hobby. If I did decide to show, it would probably be Pembrokes, though those Swedish Vallhunds are really neat, too.

I’d have put more manners on my dogs- my horses must toe the line, my dogs not so much. Has anybody else noticed that horse peoples’ dogs get away with all kinds of crap, and dog peoples’ horses tend to have poor manners?

[LibertyRun]

I went to my first Rally show a few weeks ago. What a relaxing good time!! Was like a dressage show for dogs! Everyone I met was very nice and helpful. I think it will be fun to do more when I have less life going on.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=shakeytails;8613158]
I’d have put more manners on my dogs- my horses must toe the line, my dogs not so much. Has anybody else noticed that horse peoples’ dogs get away with all kinds of crap, and dog peoples’ horses tend to have poor manners?[/QUOTE]

It’s all about what they are used to; honestly I have done very little (almost none) special handling or training with my dogs for conformation. You just bring them out enough times and they figure it out. I don’t let my dogs play at ringside or lunge at other dogs to play, or allow them to bark at shows, so eventually it just becomes a learned behavior. I’m off to a show today, however, and fully expect my almost 9 month old puppy to make me look like a fool in the ring. He’s only been to 2 shows before and doesn’t have a clue yet.

The same, I’m sure, for people that show their horses a lot. Mine rarely leave the property, so it’s always a traumatic event (more so for me) to trailer them and go somewhere.

[Field_of_Dreams_Mini]

[QUOTE=trubandloki;8612526]
So the poisoning happened at her home?[/QUOTE]

Yes.