Questions about Showing Non AQHA/APHA Stock Horse…

[Scribbler]

I had a little wildie mare (Canadian feral horse) as a teen. I took her in the local monthly Playday open shows organized by our Horseman’s club. She didn’t look like any breed at all, but was nicely put together as a working horse. She was more versatile and better schooled and I had a better seat than some of the girls who had fat hang dog but real Quarter Horses, and cleaned up the ribbons. Once we got Third in Western Pleasure. Most of the time we were Fifth or nothing. Maresy also didn’t see why she should blast in the arena (she would blast on trails) so we didn’t live up to our potential in games. There were two super hot barrel horses that traded off first and second. One show, one rider was out of town and the other knocked a barrel and we got our one and only first place ribbon in anything.

My experience riding and showing as a kid taught me an important lesson. The show ring is a tiny moment out of time that reflects only a thin slice of what your horse can do. A special purpose horse will almost always beat an all around working horse in any given class. But the all around working horse is the one that will give you the most joy over time especially if you love trails and camping and trying new things.

Same thing in dressage. The natural quality of gaits factor into the score both as a separate score but also in how each movement is scored. If you have a big striding WB you will.score better than a QH at same level of training, and perhaps the WB will score better with less training too.

Just like our Mustangs would never beat a QH in Western Pleasure even if they are going better within their own parameters of gait and conformation.

It is what it is.

[FjordBCRF]

@Scribbler

But the all around working horse is the one that will give you the most joy over time especially if you love trails and camping and trying new things.

This is perfectly stated.

@WildGooseChase my experience is that you’re going to be judged against the horses in your classes, breed aside. My local open shows are like the stock horse circuit shows but a lite version, and it sounds like yours are too. Id adjust your expectations based on that. When I was younger my AQHA had racing bloodlines. She did much better in the English classes vs the western, but still wasn’t competitive because she was too forward and didn’t have the low headset. Anytime we did well was because it was low attendance or there we bad rides.

I just posted some questions about local open shows and ranch classes for my fjord for some exposure and something different to do. There is also a contesting series through the same group that I’m half a kind to take him to one of those shows as well since there are some Working Equitation elements to those too. It doesn’t matter if or how well we pin in a class; the reality with him is I can do so much. I got burnt out when I was younger with showing. People took it too seriously and I am quite honestly hesitant getting back into it. If my horse is showing up and working to the best of his current ability whether it’s “perfect” or not, I don’t really care. And if he has a bad day, he has a bad day .

We did one schooling show last year and have a couple on the docket coming up (showing I care the least about), we haul out for trails, we ride our local property, we go out to do cow sorting, have done a couple clinics, we do pleasure driving, he knows how to go over jumps (small jumps lol), we do all sorts of obstacles, ground work, and he loves getting in the water.

As a 6 year old, he is already incredibly well rounded, confident, and has great manners which opens the door for us to do so much and have all the fun doing it! It also keeps him interested in doing things and he has a “let’s go, what are we doing today?” demeanor when I get to the barn. That’s the big picture for me!

[Showbizz]

You can show your “ranchy” horse in pleasure, but keep the ranchy turnout. That tells the judge you know your horse doesn’t move traditionally and that you’re not trying to make it what it isn’t. Some judges might prefer the ranchy style.

[roseymare]

@WildGooseChase

think it’s silly to judge a Saddlebred against the standards for a stock horse. They’re vastly different and should be treated as such.

I guess I just have a different opinion than most of the industry. Oh well

No you actually do not. When an official of a truly open show a judge should judge a horse against the standards for that breed. Some judges are scared to do it but many will and believe me it will be rewarded by more judging opportunities in the open show world. Open shows are on the rise again and I think people have forgotten how diverse horse areas sometimes are.

As others have noted when you are showing under an organization with its own rules that allows horses of any breed you are going to be judged by the standards of that organization. These shows may be considered “open” by some as they are open to multiple breeds but they are not the true open show that I am referring to in my above paragraph.

[roseymare]

Also is she freeze branded? If so make sure her mane doesn’t cover it.

But honestly if people are already mistaking her for a ranch bred QH you really shouldn’t have much issue showing in ranch classes.

[beau159]

@WildGooseChase

I have a Reservation Mustang (off the Southern Ute Rez). She is registered Undocumented PtHA in the stock color category. She is often mistaken for reining bred Quarter Horses, but I have no way of knowing her breeding, as she was feral upon purchase.

How can I make it more clear that she is NOT a Quarter or Paint Horse? She should be judged against Mustang breed standards, but I feel rarely is, because she is mistaken for a Quarter or Paint.

She is shown western only, with a ranchy way of going. She can slow down, but will never be able to compete with WP bred AQHA/APHA

I guess I am not truly understanding your question. If your horse looks and moves like an AQHA horse, but can’t go as slow as a real Western Pleasure horse, why wouldn’t your horse pin lower than that horse in a western pleasure class? If another horse can do it better, then yes, that horse should win.

Even if the judge knows your horse is a Mustang, is that going to change the class results? Probably not. Western Pleasure isn’t looking for ranchy movements and a ranch pace. You’re not exactly going to get an automatic win just because you make sure the judge knew your horse is a Mustang.

With that said, true Western Pleasure horses, I can’t stand to watch … but that’s a different can of worms.

Either accept your horse for what they are, and accept the results, or don’t enter WP.

[Montanas_Girl]

@roseymare

When an official of a truly open show a judge should judge a horse against the standards for that breed.

No.

When judging any show, the judge is to evaluate all the horses in the ring based on the rules and standards for that particular discipline.

[roseymare]

Ok. I’ll play. Open halter. How do I evaluate the Saddlebred? How about the Arabian? Breed character is important. Structure and balance is still our top parameters and you still need to evaluate muscle and sex character but breed character comes into play.

Take WP. Should I bottom an Arabian who nails the class just because he doesn’t have a stock horse headset?

What do you do with a gaited horse in an walk and favorite gait open class? An open show judge in an area with gaited horses should have a rudimentary knowledge of what breed racks, who foxtrots and who running walks.
In some areas of the country there are shows where all breeds actually show up at open shows-especially 4-H ones… Granted at one times many of those shows did have some filtering of the show bills for breed distinctions.

[roseymare]

I have more. Even if the classes are split by via breeds as they are in some shows. In my area we sometimes have Society Breed Western Pleasure. So I have four Arabians, two Morgans, some NSH and other halfs and an ASB to pin. What do I do with the ASB? Everyone else walks but the ASB “flat walks”. Do I call him as not completing the requirements of the class since it is not the more relaxed walk of the other breed standards?

Or what do I do in an open English Pleasure when I have one Saddleseat rider, some traditional hunters, some Arab hunters, some stock horse hunters and a Road Hack.
This may not happen at the shows you attend but it is certainly possible in my state with the increase in open shows happening now.

[Belmont]

Despite my gelding being bred to be a cutting horse, he came out small, too weak to cut, and not a great mover. I know when I enter a Ranch Pleasure class he is NOT getting any pluses or googly eyes on his movement or stun anyone with his size and looks. However, I know that I can get him to drag his and turn around nice. I don’t ever expect to win, but I know where I can do a little extra to feel like I had a good run and experience.

If I had to do a regular Western Pleasure class, because that was all that was available to me, I wouldn’t expect to win against horses that are far more likely to be bred or trained to do that class. He doesn’t move like a western pleasure horse in any association, including the Ranch Horse Association, because he moves like a 80s farm truck with no shocks. There is no pleasure there. If I wanted to horse show in a place that I’d be forced to do that class, I would need to be okay with not getting a ribbon and just spending my money to have fun and for the experience. If I didn’t want to do that, I would save my money and do shows further away where I might have a chance.

Most AQHA judges have their cards in multiple associations, and most open breed show associations try to hire those judges with multiple qualifications for added fairness but some don’t have the budget to do so. I definitely understand what you’re saying and your frustration, however the thing you have to remember is that you are paying for someone’s opinion of you and your horse. Without specific lined out class descriptions or judging requirements by the association, you are being judged at the judges discretion. I’m not saying that is wrong or right, but that is something you need to take up with your horse shows management team or association board members. Maybe they need to make class descriptions and judging requirements more clear so people don’t enter things they aren’t eligible for or won’t win (if that is important).

I’ll take your example of WP. To me, an Open WP class would be broken down across associations to be judged on the basics: smoothness (do you look like you can have cocktails and talk to the ladies while riding up there without splashing it all over the place), movement & expression (is your horse sound & does it look like a pleasure to ride and enjoying itself too), and transitions (are they smooth and effortless). That is how I would judge it unless otherwise specified by the Association or Management. That might not be how Joey WP GOD judges it though.

If the Arabian in their traditional headset did those things exceptionally, they would win over the stock horses. Granted, other things like turnout will also add a few points here and there, especially if it was a close class. However, if the Arab is in a traditional headset and looks nervous and jigs into an upward transition, I’ll likely place it lower no matter the headset. Again - that’s just me and my opinion.

It’s funny you mention it, because as a kid, I showed an Arabian in Open Horse shows and entered EVERYTHING. We all did. Our WP class had WP horses, barrel horses, trail horses, mustangs, and me - the Arab. I didn’t ever think there was blatant breed basis vs my horse & others just not doing the class requirements better than everyone else in the class when I didn’t win. But we were having SO much fun so the pink ribbon or no ribbon didn’t matter. Those were the good ole days.

[roseymare]

@Belmont

If the Arabian in their traditional headset did those things exceptionally, they would win over the stock horses. Granted, other things like turnout will also add a few points here and there, especially if it was a close class. However, if the Arab is in a traditional headset and looks nervous and jigs into an upward transition, I’ll likely place it lower no matter the headset

Very much what I was explaining. The basics are the same in almost all rulebooks. The headsets, turnout, and possibly speed are more variable for breeds.

I think there are areas of the country where breeds just don’t show against each other in open shows so it is not something everyone gives thought to as a what if situation. Also some parts of the country do have (or still have) umbrella show organizations with actual rules for their member shows for each discipline.
And some rules have become more across the board for all breeds. For example most breeds state the quarter system is to be used for showmanship. There may be a few holdouts to the half system. I can’t think of any off the top of my head but I haven’t checked rulebooks recently.

[Scribbler]

The thing is, the requirements for each class and breeding to fit those requirements has gone hand in hand at higher levels, and then we try to replicate those classes at the open or playday local level.

It’s not breed bias per se but the fact that certain breeds are better able to learn certain ways of going. I should say certain individuals of certain breeds. If you had a choice you wouldn’t show your cutting horse WP or try to do cows at speed with your WP horse.

So if your mustang resembles a reining bred QH, remember that a reining bred QH isn’t going to clean up in WP either!

[Montanas_Girl]

@roseymare

Ok. I’ll play. Open halter. How do I evaluate the Saddlebred? How about the Arabian? Breed character is important. Structure and balance is still our top parameters and you still need to evaluate muscle and sex character but breed character comes into play.

Not sure why you’re being so antagonistic, but the show will have told the judge what rulebook they follow. Western classes almost always follow AQHA guidelines in “open” shows. Often, huntseat classes do, too - it’s never stopped a nice USEF type hunter from placing highly, in my experiences.

In a walk and favorite gait class, you’re looking for consistency in whatever gait that horse performs. That alone (or the lack thereof) will usually sort out your class rapidly.

It’s not rocket science. Most of the time, at this level, I’m just looking for the safest, most consistent horse/rider pair in each class. Regardless of breed.

[roseymare]

@Montanas_Girl

It’s not rocket science. Most of the time, at this level, I’m just looking for the safest, most consistent horse/rider pair in each class. Regardless of breed.

Well of course that is correct thing to do but you are still taking into account the breed. That is my point. You hopefully are not going to bottom a consistent solid Arab in a WP class because of their headset if that headset is acceptable for the breed.

@Montanas_Girl

In a walk and favorite gait class, you’re looking for consistency in whatever gait that horse performs. That alone (or the lack thereof) will usually sort out your class rapidly.

In order to gauge consistency you have knowledge of the gaited horse gaits and how they differ . So you are in essence judging each horse against it’s breed standard for that gait. There are plenty of TWH who get racky one direction or Foxtrotters who lose rhythm the second way.

[propspony]

Yes… but a decent judge doesn’t necessarily have to be an expert in that particular breed to see that a gaited horse gets pacey or racky or loses rhythm… they just have to be able to detect a nice steady gait…

I show in a region that has/had both high quality stock breed horses and Arabians, and I’ve seen the placings go to the horse that deserved it, regardless of whether it was a qh or an Arab…

What I have also seen though, are riders of non-qh/apha/arabian/Morgan/ASBs who don’t have a lot of experience showing at shows in that class who say things like: “The judge didn’t pin my horse because it wasn’t a QH” when in fact the judge didn’t pin the horse because it lacked the rhythm or self carriage, or proper cadence, or… heck…even ability to pick up the correct lead, that the winning horse had.

we had a mustang who was practically unbeatable in my region in the W/J western classes, because she ticked all the boxes for what a nice stock breed western pleasure horse should look like… which I know because she kicked my (qh) butt all the time! lol!

[Montanas_Girl]

The STANDARD for a specific class or discipline doesn’t change based on the horse’s breed. Gaited, western pleasure, hunter, dressage, saddleseat…I could go on. There is an ideal for each discipline. How a horse presents may differ based on breed, but the basic concepts really aren’t that different.

I was born and raised in middle TN. I don’t need a lecture on gaited horses and their many varieties.

I’m really not sure why you’re so agitated about this. No one has said that all “different” breeds should be placed below the “typical” ones by default. Just that (good) judges aren’t going to specifically judge horses against multiple standards in a single class, ala a dog show.

Let’s take your halter example. Last year I judged a 4-H show where the western halter class had everything from a mini to a draft horse in it. I judged them ALL as western/stock type halter horses, because that was what the class specs called for. The mini won the class.

[propspony]

hahahahaha! I’m currently showing my 2YO APHA in halter at our local shows, and I have had my butt handed to me MANY times in the past 2 years by minis. There’s three in our local club, and all three of them have kicked my butt many times.

Good thing they’re really freaking cute or I might be offended! ROFL!

Seriously though, they’re nice minis.

[CHT]

Knowing the breed probably won’t help you as much as you hope. An open show judge shouldn’t hold a horse to breed standards, but rather allow for some variation in how the horse carries itself, with the focus being on correct gaits, manners, and obedience. A non-typical AQHA, who is built more upright, but has correct gaits, good manners and obedience may place just fine at an open show, whereas it may not at an AQHA show where conformation and breed standards play a role.

That said, judges who don’t get to see a lot of variety in breeds/types, may be drawn to what they are most familiar with, and use horses that are their preferred type, with that way of carrying itself.

Halter classes would be the exception, where you would hope the judge would ask the breed.

[roseymare]

@Montanas_Girl

Just that (good) judges aren’t going to specifically judge horses against multiple standards in a single class, ala a dog show.

I think we are talking around each other in this discussion.

If you used a mini first then you are doing what I am suggesting good judges do do. You are taking into account the minis breed in your placings. I am not talking about judging each breed according to each breeds rulebook but being able to take into account the differences in breed standards and not bottom the best horse because of in this instance size. Similarly if you had in that class a very balanced muscular Half Arab presented in a square stance as this was labeled a Western halter class, I am confident you wouldn’t fault his one or two Arabian characteristics-maybe higher set neck or dished face or tailset-more than the poorer angles balance and underpinnings of an obvious QH in the same class.
That was what my gaited example was supposed to convey- not any sort of schooling of you. Just that if you can see consistency in the gaits then you know the differences in gaited breeds thus you are using those standards to judge. You aren’t looking at the Foxtrotters and wondering why their gait isn’t even. You aren’t looking at the racking horse and expecting him to nod. You know what the gaits look like in those breeds.

[roseymare]

@propspony

What I have also seen though, are riders of non-qh/apha/arabian/Morgan/ASBs who don’t have a lot of experience showing at shows in that class who say things like: “The judge didn’t pin my horse because it wasn’t a QH” when in fact the judge didn’t pin the horse because it lacked the rhythm or self carriage, or proper cadence, or… heck…even ability to pick up the correct lead, that the winning horse had.

No question that happens.and.happens a LOT. As well as being termed an Arab judge by the QH foks if you use an Arab first. Many horse show peeps like to blame judges